Windows Phone 8 not coming to current Lumias - kick in the teeth for Nokia?

[BubbaHotepUK]

So Microsoft have confirmed that Windows Phone 8 isn't coming to any current Windows Phone (full story at The Verge: Microsoft: no upgrades to Windows Phone 8, but some features will come in Windows Phone 7.8 | The Verge).

Doesn't this announcement make life difficult for Nokia? Just as the Lumia 800 & 900 are gaining traction, especially in the US market, they can now be seen as 'legacy' devices. Why would anyone buy one now, knowing that in October updates will come you cannot take advantage of? With the iPhone 5 rumoured to be out in October, have Microsoft shot themselves in the foot, and shot Nokia in the back?


Thoughts from the learned panel?

[nutley]

doesn't look good does it and not something Nokia need to help them get their sales up.

They do have the mapping on all WP8 devices though and I hope they get some firsts or exclusives with WP8/Win 8 tablets.

The Microsoft tablet does not seem to have got a particularly great reception so far either.

[93tid]

In reality, current Lumia owners should not be that disappointed, since they will get all updates not requiring specific hardware, i.e. not needing multi-core support, NFC or higher screen resolution. However I don't see anyone realistically buying a WP7 handset today knowing that WP8 will be out by the end of the year. And that will kill Q3 and probably Q4 2012 for Nokia. I don't know how much battering they can take.

I have no doubts WP8 will be here to stay, the question is whether Nokia will be there as well. Or will it be a case of a "Microsoft Lumia" take on the Google Nexus ?

[False Morel]

What a week for Nokia!!

MS announced the Surface tabels, and now no WP8 path for older devices!!

I'm one of those who are ruling the Lumia 900 out!
I really didn't have any problem that the Lumia 900 is underspecced compared to the competition, specifically the GSIII..
But that is because of WP! And now that WP8 is not coming, it really doesn't make sense to spend a huge of 541€ with o2 on the phone!

Maybe if they cut the price down to 300€ I'll consider it!! I would then upgrade by the end of the year!!

Many of the features coming with Windows Phone 8 are huge! These features were the main reason I stuck to Windows Phone.. Not that when they arrive I can't get them!

As to Nokia in general though, this is a blow of course.. But still not a deadly one!
With WP8 it's reasonable to think they'll be the front runners with their coming devices! And with such an upgrade, I can't see any advantage for iOS and Android over WP anymore! Nokia will have a bunch of valuable exclusives as well. Big differetiators!

[93tid]

it really doesn't make sense to spend a huge of 541€ with o2 on the phone!

Have you heard anything further about T-Mobile Germany not offering the 900 due to unavailability of upgrade to full WP8 ?

Nokia will have a bunch of valuable exclusives as well. Big differentiators!

What did I miss ? I saw only that Nokia Maps, Drive, etc. will be made available to all WP8 handsets regardless of manufacturer. So what big differentiators are there for Nokia ?

[samperry209]

I really hate Microsoft right now. You have me and many other people who have forked out for a lumia only to be told oh your phone is legacy! .. I actually hope that Nokia pull away from Microsoft. Absolute joke!

[buxz777]

apparently windows 8 apps wont be backwards compatible either due to the higher spec and resoloution of the new phones coming for windows 8 , this doesnt mean the end of the world though as windows 7 apps will work on windows 8

this means as long as devolopers code the apps/games for windows 7 they should work on windows 8 and with windows 8 having no devices yet and windows 7 having them all , apps will still be made for windows 7 phones for some time , however there will be a time in the near future when devolopment for windows 7 handsets will dwindle as well which is even more bad news for windows 7 device owners

its defo a bit of a kick in the teeth to anyone thats signed up for a 2 year contract , i wouldnt be happy at all

more here Microsoft previews key Windows Phone 8 platform features especially in the comments section from raffe

[93tid]

with windows 8 having no devices yet

HTC managed to "leak" their roadmap for WP8 devices one day after the official WP8 presentation - HTC's Windows Phone 8 roadmap: 'Zenith' flagship, 'Accord' midrange, and 'Rio' entry-level models | The Verge - with first WP8 handsets to hit the market in October 2012.

Where is Nokia ?

[mkr100001]

I don't see the big deal. I'm not going to kick up a fuss because I can't have a software update that will update my hardware. If a lot of WP8 relies on the new hardware then c'est la vie.......

We should at least wait for the announcements for end users before we throw our toys out the pram...

[93tid]

You are absolutely right, based on getting your Lumia last November, which gives you a good year before the first WP8 handsets come to market.

On the other hand, hand on heart - would you buy a Lumia today ? And how would you feel if you had got yours just a couple of days ago ?

It is absolutely the right way to go for Microsoft. Nokia will have the problem with sales of Lumias dropping and nothing to replace them. And they don't seem to have any hardware ready for the WP8 launch either.

[mkr100001]

Honestly, probably not. At least not until I know what 7.8 is like...but even then it's not that long to wait until WP8 comes out. I think I saw it was coming near the end of this year, unless I dreamt that.

[93tid]

WP8 should be out in Q4, according to the leaked HTC roadmap they should have their first WP8 handsets released in October.

So you prove my point about Nokia - you would hold out to see what WP7.8 or even WP8 would be instead of buying now. That is what I'm worried will hurt Nokia more than even their revised expectations of how bad Q3 will be.

[mkr100001]

Yeah I see your point about that. I don't see the point in throwing a wobbler until we know exactly what WP7.8 will consist of

[NAVVARR]

I'm not that bothered -since I don't own a Lumia. I can imagine that current owners would be fed up but then ,you bought a W7 phone- why do you expect it to be a W8 phone?

Personally, I'm quite looking forward to W8 - I'm considering a W8 phone, W8 tablet and a W8 PC next year - hopefully exerything will sync and talk to each other- could very well end up a fantastic set up- if M$ get the software right and Nokia provide the hardware.

[BubbaHotepUK]

Analysts seem to think it will hit Nokia sales:

"Operators and users will hold on until the new devices are in the market this coming autumn," cautions analyst Malik Saadi with Informa Telecoms & Media in London.
"This will have a serious impact on Nokia's financial performance this quarter."

Full text: Lack of Windows Phone 8 upgrade putting the hurt on Nokia | News | TechRadar

It's serious if operators decide to not stock any more of the current Lumias.

[Doc Tran]

Where is Nokia ?

Probably got nothing ready until Nokia World. This would be roughly 18 months after the burning platform announcement of Feb 11, which is a full product cycle for Nokia. Hopefully we see some great original WP8 hardware announced.

[False Morel]

And they don't seem to have any hardware ready for the WP8 launch either.

You really think Nokia are behind HTC and Samsung now in the Windows Phone platform?! Really??

They developed WP8 together with MS! I won't be surprised if they already have full access to WP8 while HTC and Samsung still don't!
WP8 was demoed on a Nokia dual-core, NFC, high-resolution display phone!

You really think they won't be the front runners in the WP8 debut Q4??

All HTC will do is install WP8 on the HTC One X.. Samsung will produce a WP version of the GSIII similar to what they did with Focus S (WP variant of the GSII)..
No one will buy these products! They would obviously get the One X and the GSIII..

Samsung are back to the WP platform because they're obliged to! They had to sign a deal with MS due to a lost court case.. They must now help produce hardware for and market the platform. They went for that to save more royalties costs on their Android devices..

I don't have a single doubt that Nokia World will deliver us the best WP8 device in the market for this year!! The question is whether it would be the killer device to compete agaisnt the GSIII and the iPhone..

Regarding Nokia's current situation.. Of course MS' move is a blow for them.. But they were gonna keep struggling anyway till WP8 devices arrive! We already know that.. Now it will be a bit tougher but the climax point has always been Q4 and Nokia World..

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 PM ----------

Have you heard anything further about T-Mobile Germany not offering the 900 due to unavailability of upgrade to full WP8 ?

O2 have the exclusivity for the white version for now.. Not sure about t-mobile and vodafone.. They're not offering the phones yet.

What did I miss ? I saw only that Nokia Maps, Drive, etc. will be made available to all WP8 handsets regardless of manufacturer. So what big differentiators are there for Nokia ?

It's just Nokia Maps and Nokia Drive. There is no "etc..."
It's in Nokia's interest that their maps and navigation system gets adopted as much as possible!

Regarding their location-based ecosystem, it's not just about the Nokia Drive! There are apps and services still in work or partially released that do make a difference.
Transport, augmented reality, indoors navi...

Anyway, for differentiators you have to think of things that will be good enough to convince consumers to get Lumias over other WPs.. Not necessarily some major stuff!!
The major stuff would the whole package itself going against other platforms..

Differentiators:
- Location-based apps and services
- PureView, imaging apps and capabilities
- Design (main reason for a successful Lumia 900 US campaign) you can't underestimate this factor! We have to see the next Lumias first to judge, but Nokia and Apple already have a major lead in this area against all others..
- Miscellaneous apps and short-term exclusives: Nokia Music (Mix Radio), Nokia Reader, and many partnerships with some major players in the mobile arena including gaming..

I could go much more in detail, but you should have gotten the idea now.
Nokia have more than enough advantages against other WP OEMs.. They are already MS favorites and media's and the consumer's favorites in the WP world..

[buxz777]

lets not forget though pureview wont be as good on the windows platform due to the choice of cpu

the snapdragon chipsets they have chosen only supports 20mp , so in theory the camera will only be half as potent as the 808 camera with half the zoom capabillitites etc yes itll still be probably the best camera on mobile devices bar the 808 but it wont be the 808 module at all

lets also not forget that there isnt much room to be different on the windows platform either , same cpu , same ram , same screen resoloution , same camera mp support , same start screen etc etc the only things you can really be different on are signal , battery , memory size of mass memory and micro sd card support etc etc

i dont really understand how nokia are going to stand out on this one apart from a few services and lets face it how good were nokia services on symbian?? ovi gaming anyone?? nokia make good phones (well used to), not good services , unless they do things a lot different we have all seen how ''good'' there services are and if they are relying on that to make them different and stand out then they need a lot of good luck and finger crossing

we also have competition in the ''cloud'' services with phones like the sgs3 offering 50gb dropbox storage for free for 2 years and i believe the one x has a simmilar scheme running

its going to be really hard for nokia now , windows 8 has to be brilliant , there next device has to have it all including pureview and they need it out before xmas really otherwise its more time they dont really have , they also need tp be a bit different from htc , samsung etc better camera , better battery , no bugs , no purple tint , no bad battery issues etc etc etc

bit off topic but even the 808 is reported to have purple tint issues

[dynomot]

I played with a Lumia 900 the other day, I was impressed, it was slick, the tiles I could see being an interesting and different way of doing things and it looked and felt drop dead gorgeous. There, apart from hearsay and reviews that is my some total of knowledge regarding Windows 7. I did like it though.

I'm unsure of how much the lack of Windows 8 should be regarded as a kick in the teeth for Nokia. I strongly suspect Nokia has some aces up it's corporate sleeves. I hope so, I'd love the agony of choosing a Windows phone over an Android one in 18months (an age really, will I be hoping to look at phones running Jelly bean and Windows 9 by then ?) I don't think with 7.8 current Nokia W7 owners will feel let down. I would imagine the blog reading geeks like us among them might, but your average owner ? I think they'll be impressed and upgrade when their contacts allow them to to a Windows 8 phone.

Phone and tablet developments seem to be advancing faster and faster, I think it is time to expect your device to have a maximum shelf life of 18 months, whatever platform you choose.

[False Morel]

i dont really understand how nokia are going to stand out on this one apart from a few services and lets face it how good were nokia services on symbian?? ovi gaming anyone?? nokia make good phones (well used to), not good services , unless they do things a lot different we have all seen how ''good'' there services are and if they are relying on that to make them different and stand out then they need a lot of good luck and finger crossing

What part in my post you don't agree to??

How would it be hard for Nokia to differentiate themselves from other WP OEMs and lead the WP ecosystem?!
We don't even need to wonder about it. WP right now has become all about Nokia anyway! Lumias are the only selling WP handsets for the past months!

HTC and Samsung wouldn't really join in with full power till WP really takes off! And even when they do that, WP for Nokia will be exactly what Android is for Samsung at the moment!
Samsung are dominating Android on all ranges of devices as if it's theirs!!

Nokia will be doing the same thing with WP. That's the biggest reason I wanted Nokia to choose WP over Android!
With Android they would have dreamt on kicking Samsung aside or lead along side them!

Right now, they almost have their own platform similar to what Samsung enjoys in the Android world.
What remains to be seen is how much Nokia and MS will succeed in pushing WP to be the third ecosystem and compete against Android/Samsung and Apple..

[buxz777]

but its only their platform because no one else really wants a piece of the what 3% market share they have dude , if windows 8 actually kicks off and samsung and htc put some effort in then how are nokia going to be different from them?? it wont be hardware because microsoft limit that -- the onoy thing hardware wise will be camera and that wont be in the same league as the 808 due to the chipset

you even said it will be extra services , what services , nokia are crap at services , you know this , i know this , everyone knows this , the only good thing that they have done service wise was nokia maps and thatwill be on every windows device now , they still dont have a decent store on symbian and that was the number one phone platform untill a short time ago -- nokia dont do services very well

so you cant really awnswer me you just say we dont have to worry about it because windows has become all about nokia anyways -- but it hasnt has it because there are at least 3 other manufactuers that will be running windows 8 on exactly the same hardware some may even better hardware like screens , batterys , speakers

good luck to them but it aint assimple as you make it sound

please dont get me wrong either i think windows 8 has a lot going for it but what iam saying is , on a high end samsung and high end nokia running windows 8 how are nokia going to be different and make people buy their phones? after all people like samsung and htc have their brand name doing quite well at the minute where as nokias brand has taken a bit of a dive over the years




---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

Phone and tablet developments seem to be advancing faster and faster, I think it is time to expect your device to have a maximum shelf life of 18 months, whatever platform you choose.

the only thing wih that is a lot of normal users are iphone users and they have grown use to their phone recieving updates for what 2-3 years , i agree though 18 months support is enough really but then we have the situation and the lumia 900 just hitting shelves and being told thats pretty much it for updates enjoy , which is a bummer if youve just signed a 2 year contract expecting support and updates for most of that time

[False Morel]

it wont be hardware because microsoft limit that

MS doesn't limit how manufacturers design their phones! The design factor is a big advantage to Nokia's side.
Then, the limits you're talking about are getting very limited themselves with WP8..

the only thing hardware wise will be camera and that wont be in the same league as the 808 due to the chipset

Camera won't be the only thing.. And we still don't know yet what Lumia PureViews Nokia have in mind!
And a 20MP Lumia PureView won't be due to the chipset, but due to the sensor size!

Nokia already run that huge sensor on an ancient chipset.. They modified it a bit, and they can do the same to Qualcomm chipsets.. And very probable even that Nokia would use other chipsets for PureView than Qualcomm's anyway!

you even said it will be extra services , what services , nokia are crap at services , you know this , i know this , everyone knows this, they still dont have a decent store on symbian and that was the number one phone platform untill a short time ago -- nokia dont do services very well

The services and exclusives on the Lumias did the trick for them it seems!
Nobody is complaining about those to begin with. Lumias are getting highest statisfaction ratings so far.

Maybe you should check these apps one by one to know if they're enough to be considered good differentiators or not instead of relying on previous knowledge regarding Symbian and Ovi while things changed by miles since then with Nokia!

the only good thing that they have done service wise was nokia maps and thatwill be on every windows device now

Nokia's location-based ecosystem isn't all about Nokia Drive. There are other apps and services in the equation! Check the previous posts..

so you cant really awnswer me you just say we dont have to worry about it because windows has become all about nokia anyways -- but it hasnt has it because there are at least 3 other manufactuers that will be running windows 8 on exactly the same hardware some may even better hardware like screens , batterys , speakers

good luck to them but it aint assimple as you make it sound

I can bet my all fortune on this one! That Nokia will comfortably lead the WP ecosystem! Same as Samsung is doing over at the Android world!
The huge question is whether Lumia can't stand up to compete with the iPhone and the Galaxy..

but then we have the situation and the lumia 900 just hitting shelves and being told thats pretty much it for updates enjoy , which is a bummer if youve just signed a 2 year contract expecting support and updates for most of that time

The Lumia 900 will keep on getting updates and support from Nokia and MS! Only it will not get WP8..
As a start it will receive a big WP 7.8 update.. And I'm sure it will keep on receiving those regular smaller updates for the usual time span a phone get supported by..

[buxz777]

iam sorry i cant be as positive as you mate but i still think the same , that it will be hard for nokia to stand out/be different in windows if htc and samsung put in full blown efforts , even if they dont and they release one x and sgs3 variants with windows 8 then it could still be hard for nokia

like i said above the phones will pretty much have the same internals , cpu/gpu/ram/screen res/ it doesnt leave a lot of room to be different maybe htc with beats audio , samsung with some kick *** screen , nokia with oureview but there isnt much room to be that different really is there dude?

you say about design but the design of the lumia phones means no removeable battery , thats a bit of a show stopper for some people so while the design is great for some if someone comes out with a big replaceable battery the iam sure some will find that more attractive

the same as if samsung come out with a 4.8" super amoled 2 screen and nokia only do a 4" screen some people will prefer the 4" but others will no doubt prefer the 4.8"

if windows 8 takes off and theres money in it dont think samsung wont have a piece of that pie as well mate , they already make laptops and tabs , monitors and smart tvs etc and if they can expand that into windows 8 and make more money they will no doubt

infact with samsung taking number one spot from nokia in phones shipped whats to say they wont want to dominate the windows market as well? bofre they pulled out of symbian they made the best all round symbian phone in the i8910 omnia hd and with the sgs3 sitting pretty as a flagship through to next year and the note 2 already lined up with ics why not hit windows platform and dominate that too , if i was samsung thats what id be looking at doing wouldnt you??

like i said no one apart from nokia really put any effort into windows phone platform and nokia had to because they were paid to , it was to inmature as it was and it was reflected in poor sales etc now we have a more advanced version , something more people will pay an interest in , of course we will see htc and samsung put more effort into it

even if they dont itll be hard for microsoft and nokia to get people back when people have happily bought into ios and android which are getting better all the time infact having htc and samsung going full pelt in the windows eco system could infact do nokia some favours by gaining the platform more attention then nokia could on their own

[93tid]

You really think Nokia are behind HTC and Samsung now in the Windows Phone platform?! Really??

Right now they are not - simply because HTC and Samsung can't be bothered with the dead WP7. WP8 is a different story and I don't think Nokia are quite ready for it yet, despite your wishful thinking.

I can bet my all fortune on this one! That Nokia will comfortably lead the WP ecosystem!

Yep, the whole 2.2% market share of it.

Lumias are getting highest statisfaction ratings so far.

Why are they not selling then ?

WP for Nokia will be exactly what Android is for Samsung at the moment

Less than 3% vs more than 30% market share is not quite the same.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

I'd love the agony of choosing a Windows phone over an Android one in 18months

That should not be a problem, just unlikely it will be a Nokia Windows phone.

[False Morel]

iam sorry i cant be as positive as you mate but i still think the same , that it will be hard for nokia to stand out/be different in windows if htc and samsung put in full blown efforts , even if they dont and they release one x and sgs3 variants with windows 8 then it could still be hard for nokia

HTC did market and released some unique features for Windows Phone!!
The Titan was the first and still the only 16MP HTC cameraphone. They debutted their 4.7" screen on WP as well!
When LTE was ready, they released their LTE Titan II before Nokia released the Lumia 900 LTE for At&t!!

Samsung took a break, that's right. HTC meanwhile did all they could have done and they are nowhere to be seen near the Lumias same as they are nowhere to be seen near the Galaxies as well!

You are over-hyping HTC and downplaying Nokia! Media nowadays have the biggest say on the tech trends! When Lumia 900 was reviewed postively and hyped by the media in the US, it did well! And Nokia as a brandname in the US are not even on the map! And they went against HTC who are extremely well regarded in the US alongside Apple and Motorolla.

like i said above the phones will pretty much have the same internals , cpu/gpu/ram/screen res/ it doesnt leave a lot of room to be different

Who cares about such stuff anymore?!! Really now!
We're in 2012!

Maybe the screen technology, being IPS, AMOLED, Retina, NOVA, etc.. But what you counted are meaningless!

To differentiate oneself right now, one needs services and unique software and features! Take a look at the One X and GSIII..
Hardware-wise, some new unique designs would do the trick as well, but regarding internals, phones are the same right now! No one cares about such specs anymore!

you say about design but the design of the lumia phones means no removeable battery , thats a bit of a show stopper for some people so while the design is great for some if someone comes out with a big replaceable battery the iam sure some will find that more attractive

How many dudes you come across carrying extra batteries in their pockets??
The portion of the consumer base who care about the design are way much larger than the one who care about extra battery life!

if windows 8 takes off and theres money in it dont think samsung wont have a piece of that pie as well mate , they already make laptops and tabs , monitors and smart tvs etc and if they can expand that into windows 8 and make more money they will no doubt

infact with samsung taking number one spot from nokia in phones shipped whats to say they wont want to dominate the windows market as well? bofre they pulled out of symbian they made the best all round symbian phone in the i8910 omnia hd and with the sgs3 sitting pretty as a flagship through to next year and the note 2 already lined up with ics why not hit windows platform and dominate that too , if i was samsung thats what id be looking at doing wouldnt you??

Nokia are working hand in hand with MS to bring phone with extremely lower prices to the market. It's here where Android is dominating the market!
Not the 10 millions GSII Samsung sold in last Q4!!

The high-end battle can change any time!
And the big volume sales are lead by lower ends! Meanwhile, only Nokia are going there with WP. Samsung and HTC won't even have devices competing with the Lumia 610, let alone with the even lower ends coming from Nokia.

Regarding the flagships battle, as I told you, I'm really ready to bet all my fortune that Nokia will comfortably lead the WP ecosystem for Q4 and beyond!

like i said no one apart from nokia really put any effort into windows phone platform and nokia had to because they were paid to , it was to inmature as it was and it was reflected in poor sales etc now we have a more advanced version , something more people will pay an interest in , of course we will see htc and samsung put more effort into it

Do you know what the funny thing is?
Somehow you think Nokia will manage to differentiate themselves and succeed with Android but with WP they will be no match for HTC and Samsung!
Care to explain this part?!

even if they dont itll be hard for microsoft and nokia to get people back when people have happily bought into ios and android which are getting better all the time infact having htc and samsung going full pelt in the windows eco system could infact do nokia some favours by gaining the platform more attention then nokia could on their own

And this is the whole point.
The ones arguing against and bashing Nokia and pushing negative comments and perspectives against them are the ones refusing WP and Microsoft!!

You don't want WP to succeed and want it badly for Nokia to switch to Android..
WP is here to stay. And Nokia already took the choice! There is no turning back. End of the story.

[93tid]

When Lumia 900 was reviewed postively and hyped by the media in the US, it did well!

Not really. Compared to almost zero in previous quarter any number of sales will look impressive, but still won't be enough to save the company.

I doubt they've reached the 1mln unit mark in the US even thought they were at 0.6mln last quarter and not all of that were WP phones.

Nokia are working hand in hand with MS to bring phone with extremely lower prices to the market.

And the big volume sales are lead by lower ends! Meanwhile, only Nokia are going there with WP. Samsung and HTC won't even have devices competing with the Lumia 610, let alone with the even lower ends coming from Nokia.

You can't seem to grasp that the WP market is too insiginificant for Samsung and HTC to give a toss about having low-end devices. It's only Nokia for which WP is a matter of life and death. And releasing the poorly specced 610 at a higher price than you can currently buy the better 710 is hardly the right way to go.

WP is here to stay. And Nokia already took the choice! There is no turning back. End of the story.

Absolutely. M$ and WP are here to stay with or without Nokia. Most probably without, at least in the way it currently exists.

[buxz777]

false mate iam allowed my opinion , i dont want nokia to switch to android , i actually said that going with windows was the right move back when it all kicked off , however my points still stand that ive said and as 93 has said nokia arent/wernt ready for the switch over and have put all their eggs in one basket maybe a bit too soon

nokia are taking too long again and in windows 8 against samsung htc and huwaei they will still find it hard to be different from the others just like they would have on android , well thats how its seeming anyways

they need a very decent device very very soon with windws 8 on it because windows 7 is too limiting for many users and this has been reflected in the sales that they will now have made even worse by saying that they wont upgrade them to windows 8

iam actually looking forwards to windows 8 and another unified o/s as it goes so please dont try and tell me what i want and please stop misquoting my posts if you dont understand what ive wrote then please dont try to pick it to pieces , i understand that language barrier may be a issue but you cant expect me to debate with you when you misquoting me and twisting what i say dude

to clarify what ive said in this thread

# id be gutted if id bought a windows 7 device in the last few months and i wasnt going to see many updates over the course of a 2 year contract especially as windows 8 coed apps wont work on windows 7

# i think that nokia will find it hard to be different from others in windows 8 , you say they will rely on services , i say people already use services and nokia dont make good enough services to compete with 3rd party ones that will be avlible to all windows devices through the market place

# you say that design is important , i agree , however i dont agree that people would put design over funcinallity like a bigger battery or swapable battery , not everyone is the same , i know lots of people that carry external power packs or a spare battery in their bag/pocket/wallet etc

#you say people dont care about specs and hardware i disagree and i think its been seen that the general consumer as you like to put it always wants bigger and better its just the way it seems to go

#you misquoted me toatally and somehow say that i think nokia would succeed in an over flooded android market , i never said this , i simply said that nokia will find it hard to be different in the windows market when microsoft limit hardware specs and nokia dont make good services and there are better 3rd party services that people already use . i think they should have stuck with symbian / windows / android / meego unless the had a viable plan and upgrade paths they made windows sound like a dream move but it wasnt ready , still isnt ready and it will be some time before it is ready and on a high end nokia device

#you have also seem to got an impression that iam somehow refusing nokia and microsoft , iam not , iam just voicing my opinions that are different to yours an your getting on your high horse again and ramming your opinion that you think is fact down my throat again and in the process toataly misunderstanding what ive wrote and twisting the things ive said

#you bang on about windows platform hitting the lower priced point market segments yet ignore the fact that in the places these phones will be sold some/many people dont have pc's (nokia used to bang on about this all the time) windows platform is very reliant on pc syncing etc zune pc software etc so how do you even know that people will take to these lower priced lumia phones and not just carry on buying the cheap android phones or cheap chinese phones

am i not allowed to think that nokia will find it hard to be different from say samsung , huwaei , htc in the windows eco system

am i not allowed to like the idea of windows 8 yet see some flaws with nokia and the way they have done things / are doing things

am i not allowed to think that swapable batterys are a good thing and that uber sexy phones with one piece bodys are limiting in some areas

am i not allowed to think that if windows 8 takes off that others might actually want a piece of that pie and put more effort in and that they could if they push damage nokia windows sales

[BubbaHotepUK]

I just had a thought - maybe Microsoft announced no backwards compatibility in an attempt to drive down Nokia's market value even further, prior to a possible takeover bid? Pure speculation of course, but Microsoft have a reputation for playing hardball, even with their partners. Or am I getting cynical in my old age?

[93tid]

Quite possible, although why pay Nokia USD 250mln per quarter if you want to push them under. I think Elop is doing a pretty good job of destroying Nokia without any nudges from M$.

[mkr100001]

Seen some stuff floating around the net about nokia selling current lumia owners down the river.... This is all without seeing what WP7.8 will actually bring us.

I'd like to think that nokia aren't that stupid....

However, if this is the nail in the coffin , then they have no one to blame but themselves...and maybe MS..

[False Morel]

false mate iam allowed my opinion , i dont want nokia to switch to android , i actually said that going with windows was the right move back when it all kicked off , however my points still stand that ive said and as 93 has said nokia arent/wernt ready for the switch over and have put all their eggs in one basket maybe a bit too soon

nokia are taking too long again and in windows 8 against samsung htc and huwaei they will still find it hard to be different from the others just like they would have on android , well thats how its seeming anyways

they need a very decent device very very soon with windws 8 on it because windows 7 is too limiting for many users and this has been reflected in the sales that they will now have made even worse by saying that they wont upgrade them to windows 8

iam actually looking forwards to windows 8 and another unified o/s as it goes so please dont try and tell me what i want and please stop misquoting my posts if you dont understand what ive wrote then please dont try to pick it to pieces , i understand that language barrier may be a issue but you cant expect me to debate with you when you misquoting me and twisting what i say dude

to clarify what ive said in this thread

# id be gutted if id bought a windows 7 device in the last few months and i wasnt going to see many updates over the course of a 2 year contract especially as windows 8 coed apps wont work on windows 7

# i think that nokia will find it hard to be different from others in windows 8 , you say they will rely on services , i say people already use services and nokia dont make good enough services to compete with 3rd party ones that will be avlible to all windows devices through the market place

# you say that design is important , i agree , however i dont agree that people would put design over funcinallity like a bigger battery or swapable battery , not everyone is the same , i know lots of people that carry external power packs or a spare battery in their bag/pocket/wallet etc

#you say people dont care about specs and hardware i disagree and i think its been seen that the general consumer as you like to put it always wants bigger and better its just the way it seems to go

#you misquoted me toatally and somehow say that i think nokia would succeed in an over flooded android market , i never said this , i simply said that nokia will find it hard to be different in the windows market when microsoft limit hardware specs and nokia dont make good services and there are better 3rd party services that people already use . i think they should have stuck with symbian / windows / android / meego unless the had a viable plan and upgrade paths they made windows sound like a dream move but it wasnt ready , still isnt ready and it will be some time before it is ready and on a high end nokia device

#you have also seem to got an impression that iam somehow refusing nokia and microsoft , iam not , iam just voicing my opinions that are different to yours an your getting on your high horse again and ramming your opinion that you think is fact down my throat again and in the process toataly misunderstanding what ive wrote and twisting the things ive said

#you bang on about windows platform hitting the lower priced point market segments yet ignore the fact that in the places these phones will be sold some/many people dont have pc's (nokia used to bang on about this all the time) windows platform is very reliant on pc syncing etc zune pc software etc so how do you even know that people will take to these lower priced lumia phones and not just carry on buying the cheap android phones or cheap chinese phones

am i not allowed to think that nokia will find it hard to be different from say samsung , huwaei , htc in the windows eco system

am i not allowed to like the idea of windows 8 yet see some flaws with nokia and the way they have done things / are doing things

am i not allowed to think that swapable batterys are a good thing and that uber sexy phones with one piece bodys are limiting in some areas

am i not allowed to think that if windows 8 takes off that others might actually want a piece of that pie and put more effort in and that they could if they push damage nokia windows sales

I came to the conclusion that you're bashing Nokia to turn some wishful thinking into reality because the reasoning you're using doesn't add up together at all!
Of course you are allowed your own opinion and say what you like, but you have to expect to be questioned for what you say! This is a forum, not a feedback center..

Like EG came by some weeks ago and claimed that 13 grams extra on the Lumia 800 compared to the One X are a big deal breaker! He can say that. But should expect some counter arguments questioning such flawed logic! And it's not that bad when one makes some flawed arguments from time to time.. I do it often, as everyone does.. But when questioned and argued against, and the flaws are exposed, one has to stop and admit his wrong approach.. No harm in that!

First, you went back to some stuff we all know and we agree to. We know Nokia handled the switch badly by killing Symbian (unintentionally) too early while WP was way too young for them to rely on!!
But this the past.. Their transition was always gonna cost them a lot of cash, and with that wrong move, it cost them more than it should have.. But not the end of the world for them so far..
We move along and look forward for the three months away release of WP8 devices and the Nokia World announcements coming end of September..

We're discussing that now.
And for you, no matter what Nokia do, they're not gonna manage to differentiate themselves and hence fail to survive at all!!
Despite PureView, unique and successful industrial designs, their popular and highly rated (highly anticipated) location-based services/apps, short term exclusives with major third party players, and valuable partnerships which give them more advantage and push over the competition at least in the same ecosystem.. And despite the fact that they're MS' favorites, have been developing WP8 together with MS, have certain and huge privileges over HTC and Samsung and more degrees of freedom.. Despite all that you can't pick one single advantage or positive to Nokia's side and you're certain about their failure!

Let me ask you again: What do you expect from Nokia to do in order to survive and top the WP ecosystem at least? What is your perspective exactly?

You talked about the combo of CPU/RAM/GPU/Screen Res!!
Really? You think that by 2012 these are valid differentiators??

You think people are getting the GSIII because of the Exynos chipset?? I really can't get you in this one!
What does the Exynos chipset do or enables that the Snapdragon S4 can't or vice-versa??

There will always be minimal differences in raw performances, which become even more minimal to negligible in actual real life performances. Do you think these are or should be some prioritized criteria to pick a smartphone nowadays??

Nokia have more than enough to differentiate themselves in the WP world. And definitely way more than they could have achieved with Android regarding this area..
Q4 isn't far away. You'll see for yourself..

Quite possible, although why pay Nokia USD 250mln per quarter if you want to push them under. I think Elop is doing a pretty good job of destroying Nokia without any nudges from M$.

I don't really care if MS took over Nokia!
As long as I get my WP PureViews I don't care which brand name stands on the housing! Be it Nokia, MS, Lumia, Samsung, HTC.. Nevermind.

But anyway, it's in MS' favor not to buy Nokia unless they have to in order to save them or avoid others taking them over..

[buxz777]

false you have again misquoted me all over your reply so much so i cant really be bothered to reply , your making arguments out of nothing really

I came to the conclusion that you're bashing Nokia to turn some wishful thinking into reality because the reasoning you're using doesn't add up together at all!
Of course you are allowed your own opinion and say what you like, but you have to expect to be questioned for what you say! This is a forum, not a feedback center..

thats a nice conclusion i hope your happy with that and slept better at night , congratulations , but not true , i havent even bashed nokia , just stated that if samsung and htc go full pelt at windows 8 then nokia could find it hard in the windows eco system like they would have the android eco system and also that microsoft windows 7 wasnt ready for nokia to jump into and abandon meego , symbian , etc etc

Let me ask you again: What do you expect from Nokia to do in order to survive and top the WP ecosystem at least? What is your perspective exactly?

well i think it will be very hard (as i keep saying) i think they would have been better off with meego / android / symbian / s40 / windows phones all of them like samsung do and like others do , however in the windows eco system i dont think letting everyone use nokia maps is a good idea that would have helped them be different from others but now everyone has one of the best bits of nokia , the pureview will help , to be honest unless the others dont go full pelt i just think it will be hard for nokia to be different from them and stand out and what is wrong with me thinking that?? nothing is wrong with me thinking that its my opinion

Despite PureView, unique and successful industrial designs, their popular and highly rated (highly anticipated) location-based services/apps, short term exclusives with major third party players, and valuable partnerships which give them more advantage and push over the competition at least in the same ecosystem

lmao like what , cmon please tell me , yes the lumia design was nice but like i said before it had limiting factors like no removeable battery and pretty crappy battery life not a great mix mate if you ask me lmao and these so called brilliant location based services that will make nokia so different are ................ please feel free to educate us

Despite all that you can't pick one single advantage or positive to Nokia's side and you're certain about their failure!

despite all what , a nice design with limiting factors , location based services , nope sorry they dont make me think cor blimey nokia has ahuge advantage in windows department here and nope iam not certain about their failure , i dont want them to fail but cmon they are making some useless mistakes that have already seen them , sack people , close depots , loose share prices and massive amounts of market share

You talked about the combo of CPU/RAM/GPU/Screen Res!!
Really? You think that by 2012 these are valid differentiators??

well according to everyone who wants and buys phones yes mate , specs are always compared and people want the best , obvously everyone has different needs like some people not wanting a big screen but yeah people do buy phones for cpu/gpu/ram/screen size/screen res/ a smple example is all the iphone users that moaned about the 4s when it came out , now iphone users are known as general comsumers as you call them so i guess people do care about spec etc

Nokia have more than enough to differentiate themselves in the WP world. And definitely way more than they could have achieved with Android regarding this area..
Q4 isn't far away. You'll see for yourself..

oh i hope i do but i dont think a few location based services and a lumia design will do it

anyways have a nice day and please dont get me involved in this discussion anymores i wouldnt mind but you always misread/misunderstand my posts and i really cant be bothered anymores , youve tried to say that ive said things i havent just for the sake of an arguement

its pretty simple

I THINK NOKIA WILL FIND IT HARD TO BE DIFFERENT FROM SAY SAMSUNG AND HTC IN THE WINDOWS ECO SYSTEM -- I ALSO THINK THAT IF SAMSUNG AND HTC PUT A LOT OF EFFORT INTO WINDOWS THEN IT COULD DAMAGE NOKIAS SALES -- I ALSO THINK THAT DOING THINGS LIKE PUSHING WINDOWS 7 AS AN UPGRADE PATH THEN SHUNNING SOME USERS BY QUICKLY MAKING THEM LEGACY DEVICES COULD COME BACK AND BITE THEM IN THE BUM

the end i have nothing else to say on the matter if you dont agree that is brilliant , i dont expect everyone to because its simply my opinion based on what ive seen so far

[93tid]

And on a lighter note -

[BubbaHotepUK]

LOL - that meme never gets old, does it.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

Seen some stuff floating around the net about nokia selling current lumia owners down the river.... This is all without seeing what WP7.8 will actually bring us.

I'd like to think that nokia aren't that stupid....

However, if this is the nail in the coffin , then they have no one to blame but themselves...and maybe MS..

See what the latest update brings here: Nokia Lumia 800 and Lumia 710 update incoming this week | News | TechRadar

Tethering, flip to silence, DLNA streaming - all of which drag Windows Phone up to what I had on my HTC Desire over 2 years ago! Still, it's progress, so 7.8 could be good.

The camera improvements look worth having though - you'd need to use several apps on other ecosystems for some of those things.

[False Morel]

It's been confirmed that WP8 isn't coming to current WPs is due to the cost..

WP8 can be run on the current hardware but most of the benefits won't apply to the current devices due to the missing hardware..
So importing a whoe new kernel and OS just for simple tweaks won't be cost efficient nor that of a smart move.

Hence WP7.8 is coming to bring what could be brought to current devices from WP8..
For me, one thing is extremely important and that's Skype integration.. The big let down remains of course that new WP8 apps won't run on WP7.8 devices...

However, if Skype is fully supported with WP7.8, and the prices get sliced down then I'll snatch the Lumia 900..

[mkr100001]

LOL - that meme never gets old, does it.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------



See what the latest update brings here: Nokia Lumia 800 and Lumia 710 update incoming this week | News | TechRadar

Tethering, flip to silence, DLNA streaming - all of which drag Windows Phone up to what I had on my HTC Desire over 2 years ago! Still, it's progress, so 7.8 could be good.

The camera improvements look worth having though - you'd need to use several apps on other ecosystems for some of those things.

Is that WP7.8??

I don't think so.....

[93tid]

Is that WP7.8??

I don't think so.....

It's not and no one said it was, that's the Tango update. I don't think you'll see WP7.8 before the first WP8 handsets are in the market.

[mkr100001]

It's not and no one said it was, that's the Tango update. I don't think you'll see WP7.8 before the first WP8 handsets are in the market.

Sorry I thought that's why he was highlighting that line in my post. My bad.

[buxz777]

does anyone know if windows 7 market place has apps that stream properley (ie dlna both ways) its jut that nokia play used to be only from phone to device and not device to phone

[dynomot]

I think your probably right 93tid, I might face the agony of choice but a Samsung Android phone or an identical looking Samsung Windows phone. The Nokia of my N95 days of innovation, respect and (perhaps more importantly) leading market share are gone. I desperately want Nokia to have a killer W8 phone out there selling like hot cakes late (for Christmas) Q4, I want it to save them. It won't happen.

Thankyou Mr Elop, you killed a platform I loved with it's legacy from home computing at the very start with Symbian, now your killing the company I had a soft spot for. I can only assume, as I have before and bubba has said in this thread that you want Nokia on it's knees to let MS in to "save" it, buy it outright and use it as a hardware manufacturer. Well done..... mission almost accomplished.

[Bartmanekul]

Coming back and reading this forum brings a wtf thought at everything Microsoft and Nokia are doing. You might be missing out on little from 7.8 to 8 as far as features go (depending on what they end up putting in 7.8), but are they completely forgetting user perception?

It will just be seen to people that they are being penalised for getting a Windows phone and not getting an update. Doesn't matter about versions, the lumias are pretty new, and yet they are not getting a big update. Regardless of the reality, that's how it will look to many.

Peoples perceptions is the one thing MS and Nokia really need to change, even if it cost them a lot initially. And how on earth did they not see this coming? Elop is either incredibly inept at business (which his record doesn't really show) or it's all deliberate. I do enjoy a good laugh at FMs continuing....optimism though.

[BubbaHotepUK]

Sorry I thought that's why he was highlighting that line in my post. My bad.

Yes, it wasn't massively clear in my post. My intent was to highlight that there are some useful things in the current update, albeit catch-up stuff, so the 7.8 update could bring some relatively big stuff.

Windows Phone aside, I think Nokia have really screwed up the 808 launch too. Surely they could take a leaf out of Apple, Samsung & HTC's book over their basic 'go to market' strategies? It just doesn't show any sign of basic competence operating within Nokia at the moment.

[BubbaHotepUK]

The price of the Lumia 900 has been cut in half in the US.

Full story at Nokia Lumia 900 now half-price following Windows Phone 8 snub | News | TechRadar.

You've got to to love the spin the Nokia PR guy has had to trot out:

"This move is a normal strategy that is put in place during the lifecycle of most phones," Nokia spokesman Doug Dawson explained to the Wall Street Journal.

LOL - you see Samsung, Apple and HTC cutting their flagship phone prices after less than 6 months on the market too. Not.