Nokia shoot themselves in the foot .... again ?

[BubbaHotepUK]

So, in all likelihood the new Nokia Windows Phone 8 handsets are to be launched on September 5th, according to Reuters:

Nokia fuels hopes of phone launch ahead of Apple | Reuters

This is a week before the iPhone 5 launch. Surely this is appallingly bad timing - the announcement will get headline space all to itself for about a day or too, before it is drowned out in pre-launch iPhone 5 speculation across the blogosphere.

A week later, the popular press will be saturated with discussions of the actual iPhone specs, and a week after that the news will be filled of reports people queuing outside Apple stores overnight, in order to get day 1 purchases of the iPhone 5.

It doesn't matter if the Nokia phone blows the iPhone 5 out of the water, it's simply going to be lost in the iMedia feeding frenzy.

Surely it would make sense for Nokia to wait for the iFurore to pass, before making their big announcements? Given Nokia's history, the product won't be on the shelves until months after the announcement anyway.

Does anyone else think Nokia have got the launch timing badly wrong, yet again?

[nutley]

Let's hope it is a proper high end phone that they believe will compete with the iPhone, ready to release wthin a couple of weeks after the announcement too

[NAVVARR]

I don't think they've shot themselves in the foot at all. Selling windows phones is only a part of windows 8. I think you'll find that there Will be a coordinated media offensive for the whole windows 8 ecosystem. As for waiting til after the new iphone. . . How are you going to sell phones after the masses have bought the new i phone?

[BubbaHotepUK]

Surely then it makes sense to release Windows Phone 8 as part of the Windows 8 wave coming at the end of October? Surface week 1, Windows 8 week2, Windows Phone week 3 etc? They'd dominate the press and really get people into the whole Windows 8 mindset - one ecosystem from desktop, laptop, tablet to phone.

As it stands, even if Nokia have the phones on the shelves on the announcement day, that gives them 2 weeks before the iPhone 5 hits the shelves. It's well documented that Apple sales have slumped in anticipation of the iPhone 5 - so people aren't going to rush out and buy an alternative phone anyway. This is all about media coverage & not getting drowned out in iNoise.

I just think Nokia needs to accept that the iPhone is going to eat up all the column inches in the coming months, and should still well clear. Samsung released the S3 this completely out of phase with Apple - 6 months away from the Apple release schedule, as far as they can get, and have benefited immensely in terms of press coverage. They are only going toe to toe with Apple with the Note 2 announcement - and that's aimed at an entirely different demographic.

Heck, if Samsung announced the SGS4 two weeks before iPhone 5, even I'd wait and see what the iPhone 5 was going to deliver

Interesting these rumours about Nokia releasing a Galaxy Note equivalent Windows Phone 8 device, though. That'd be very newsworthy at any time.

[Doc Tran]

In all likelihood, the WP8 phones will be announced in September and released in October or November. That should bracket the new iPhone launch and accompanying media frenzy. I really doubt iOS 6 will offer much to keep it fresh, so new buyers might be more receptive to WP8.

The only way I see Nokia shooting themselves in the foot with their announcement is by going GSM only again.

Who is really shooting themselves in the foot? Motorola. They're piggybacking Sept 5 and I really doubt they'll make any waves with their next Razr.

[False Morel]

What goes before the iPhone 5 goes after the iPhone 5..

It's important that Nokia release their phones, specially their flagsip WP8 device, as soon as possible!
Shooting themselves in the foot would be by announcing the phones on 5th of Sept. and releasing them end of November!! I doubt this would happen though..

What really matters are the products themselves. The Lumia line-up is already welcomed by the media as a newcomer. And Nokia have done a good work considering the time and limitation they had to deal with releasing their first WP batch..

We know they won't be outselling the Galaxy line-up nor the iPhone on the highend over the coming quarter, but it's important to meet the expectations at least, or even beat them!
Keep going forward that is. A step backward at this time could mean the end for them.

Based on their performance since the Lumia 800 release so far, potential is there, they need to execute right though. It's really about some critical time for them. No doubt about it..

I think if there is someone to join Samsung and Apple at the high ranks in the short time, this one could only be Nokia..

[False Morel]

At the mean time though, if Samsung release a WP version of the coming Note, I will be having hard time choosing between this and a PureView Nokia!!

If either one of the two would be available at one time, snatching that gadget would be a no brainer for me.

A dream superphone would be a Note PureView released by Nokia though! I can dream can't I??

[93tid]

I think if there is someone to join Samsung and Apple at the high ranks in the short time, this one could only be Nokia..

OK, wake up call:

Q2 2012 smartphone unit sales:

1.........Samsung . . . 50.4 M
2 . . . . Apple . . . . . . 26.0 M
3 . . . . Nokia . . . . . . 10.2 M
4 . . . . HTC . . . . . . . . 8.8 M
5 . . . . ZTE . . . . . . . . 8.0 M

Breakdown of Nokia's sales:

Symbian - 5.0Mln
Meego - 1.2Mln
WP - 4.0Mln

Nokia's current 3rd place is only thanks to two dead platforms, which clearly have no potential for future growth whatsoever. Based on WP7 (now also obsolete) sales only Nokia would not make the top 10. WP7 sales will clearly decline or at best flatline in Q3 so no big surprise if Nokia loses a couple of places. Bought and paid for media praise is worthless if retail and end users refuse to buy regardless of price drops, free £200 headsets, 50 EUR Ikea vouchers and whatever other desperate forms of bribery M$ and Nokia resort to. Never mind joining Samsung and Apple in the high ranks, Nokia nees to ensure it's survival first. With Elop in charge, that is mission impossible.

[nutley]

It's important that Nokia release their phones, specially their flagsip WP8 device, as soon as possible!
Shooting themselves in the foot would be by announcing the phones on 5th of Sept. and releasing them end of November!! I doubt this would happen though..

I do not doubt this at all, i hope it isn't the case but i'm thinking availability in October

[93tid]

One indication of release date will be how fast and desperate are the retail channels going to be to get rid of their now obsolete Lumia stock towards the end of the month.

[BubbaHotepUK]

I keep getting emails from CPW to buy a Lumia 710 for £99, I guess stock shifting has begun! It's great value at that price point, & I'm severely tempted, except I know it's not going to get the 8.0 update & there's no SD card slot.

Looks like Windows Phone could overtake Blackberry by November.

[False Morel]

OK, wake up call:

Q2 2012 smartphone unit sales:

1.........Samsung . . . 50.4 M
2 . . . . Apple . . . . . . 26.0 M
3 . . . . Nokia . . . . . . 10.2 M
4 . . . . HTC . . . . . . . . 8.8 M
5 . . . . ZTE . . . . . . . . 8.0 M

Breakdown of Nokia's sales:

Symbian - 5.0Mln
Meego - 1.2Mln
WP - 4.0Mln

Nokia's current 3rd place is only thanks to two dead platforms, which clearly have no potential for future growth whatsoever. Based on WP7 (now also obsolete) sales only Nokia would not make the top 10. WP7 sales will clearly decline or at best flatline in Q3 so no big surprise if Nokia loses a couple of places. Bought and paid for media praise is worthless if retail and end users refuse to buy regardless of price drops, free £200 headsets, 50 EUR Ikea vouchers and whatever other desperate forms of bribery M$ and Nokia resort to. Never mind joining Samsung and Apple in the high ranks, Nokia nees to ensure it's survival first. With Elop in charge, that is mission impossible.

With or without Symbian and MeeGo sales, Nokia now belongs to the same bunch.
Be it third or sixth or seventh doesn't matter..

I'm stressing on the fact of where Nokia are heading with their Lumia line-up.
Specially starting Q4 and the new WP8 batch..

They could very well sell less in Q3 and drop few places even. But doesn't tell anything about their future.
Q4 will have the big say.

The difference is you're looking at the cup half empty, I'm looking at it half full!
Lumia line-up is very young, immature so far, and still gaining grounds and growing despite the fierce competition and the domination of the Galaxies and the iPhones!
Regarding the media factor, it's vital and the most important in the whole equation.

As the media reviewed the Lumias as welcomed newcomers, that's all what Nokia needed. It was impossible for them to sell up to ten millions or more as a start arriving that late into the market and immaturely as well!

However, all this, media positive reviews, sales growth despite the very few millions sold, and heavy campaining, is all to set the road for the coming WP8 batch where Nokia will have their first complete strike.

That's why the step remaining is the delivery itself. To meet the expectation with the new WP8 batch as everything else is set ready to go!
That's the good job Elop has achieved so far.

[93tid]

I'm stressing on the fact of where Nokia are heading with their Lumia line-up.
Specially starting Q4 and the new WP8 batch..

So where are they heading specifically ? Apart from meaningless drivel like "keep going forward", "meet expectations", etc. ? For the last 18 months the only way Nokia has gone is backward and down, so how can they "keep going forward" ?

They could very well sell less in Q3 and drop few places even. But doesn't tell anything about their future.

Oh yes it does. A lot.

The difference is you're looking at the cup half empty, I'm looking at it half full!

No, I am looking at the real cup, you are looking at something non-existent.

Lumia line-up is very young, immature so far, and still gaining grounds and growing despite the fierce competition and the domination of the Galaxies and the iPhones!

Lumia is 10 months old on a two-year old and now obsolete OS. If that's what you call young and immature, so be it. Gaining ground - not really:

INSTALLED BASE OF SMARTPHONES BY OPERATING SYSTEM AS OF Q2 2012

Rank . OS Platform . . . . . . Units . . . . . Market share . . Was in Q1 of 2012
1 . . . . Android . . . . . . . . . 427 M . . . . . 41 % . . . . . . . . ( 32 %)
2 . . . . Symbian . . . . . . . . 259 M . . . . . 25 % . . . . . . . . ( 30 %)
3 . . . . iOS . . . . . . . . . . . 198 M . . . . . 19 % . . . . . . . . ( 18 %)
4 . . . . Blackberry . . . . . . 108 M . . . . . 10 % . . . . . . . . ( 11 %)
5 . . . . bada . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 M . . . . . 2 % . . . . . . . . ( 2 %)
6 . . . . Windows Phone . . . . 14 M . . . . . 1 % . . . . . . . . ( 1 %)
7 . . . . Windows Mobile . . . . 13 M . . . . 1 % . . . . . . . . ( 2 %)
Others . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 M . . . . . 2 % . . . . . . . . ( 3 %)
TOTAL Installed Base . . . 1,059 M smartphones in use at end of Q2 2012

1% in Q1, 1% in Q2, so not really gained anything. 14 mln WP smartphones actually activated out of over 1 bln smartphones in use today is hardly impressive by any standards.

As the media reviewed the Lumias as welcomed newcomers, that's all what Nokia needed. It was impossible for them to sell up to ten millions or more as a start arriving that late into the market and immaturely as well!

No, Nokia needed to shift phones. Media reviews do not pay suppliers or salaries. 10 months after arriving into the market later they still can't sell ten million WP phones in a quarter across 5 models. SGS3 sold that in one month after release.

However, all this, media positive reviews, sales growth despite the very few millions sold, and heavy campaigning, is all to set the road for the coming WP8 batch where Nokia will have their first complete strike.

Media positive reviews ? Paid for by Nokia ? How about neutral research, like for example this one :

"Despite best efforts, the Nokia Lumia 900 isn’t delivering on its promises. On a 1-5 rating scale, 42 percent of respondents to our survey answered 1, that they are not likely at all to recommend the Nokia Lumia 900 to a friend or family member."

So 4 out of 10 US customers hate the Lumia 900 and would not recommend it to friends or family. Quite positive indeed.

What does that mean ? What will this complete strike look like ?

That's why the step remaining is the delivery itself. To meet the expectation with the new WP8 batch as everything else is set ready to go!

Again - what is this expectation ?

That's the good job Elop has achieved so far.

You mean achievements like:

1. Last 6 quarters market share 24% (Q1 2011) - 16% - 14% - 13% - 8% - 7%

Nokia market share in Q4 2010 was 29% and Nokia was so dominant in smartphones, it was not just the biggest smartphone maker, it was literally more than twice as big as its nearest rival (Apple) and also bigger than its two nearest rivals combined (Apple + Samsung). Elop came in Q3 2010, the burning platform memo was released in Q1 2011. The effects are painfully clear from the numbers - effectively bankrupting the Nokia Symbian smartphone unit which made 20% of Nokia phones, generated 30% of Nokia revenues and produced a whopping 40% of Nokia profits when he took over.

2. The Meego and N9 catastrophe

3. Killing off Meltemi 2 (two) months from release

4. Disastrous mismanagement of retail channels and carrier relationships

5. Selling off Qt

6. Nokia's credit rating was one notch below perfect in Q1 2011, 10 consecutive downgrades later it is junk, plus another dozen points which I don't have the time to get into detail here

Good job indeed, if the job in question is the systematic destruction of Nokia.

[Bartmanekul]

I don't usually reply to FM's posts, but honestly, Elop doing a good job? How on earth can you say that seriously? There is absoloutly no proof whatsoever you can provide for that. 93Tid gave all the evidence, but I just had to post my utter disbelief.

[BubbaHotepUK]

Yes, have to agree. If anyone in or around Nokia marketing or management is doing a good job, it's Microsoft.

[False Morel]

Sept. 5th and the releases and the end of this year aren't far enough. We shall see if Nokia are capable of bouncing back and whether Elop managed to lift from the shithole they dipped themselves into or not.

Even market experts are debating the thing, and having different views and opinions. I have faith in what Elop is doing, and where Nokia are heading.

Wanna bet? Last time you wisely pulled out of the bet, wanna stick now?!

[93tid]

whether Elop managed to lift from the shithole they dipped themselves into or not.

Can you please make your mind up ? Is Elop doing a good job or are Nokia in a shithole ? Both cannot be true at the same time.

I have faith in what Elop is doing, and where Nokia are heading.

I don't do religion, I do facts. So do the Nokia shareholders who apparently are finally getting around to calling an emergency metting to fire the moron.

Wanna bet? Last time you wisely pulled out of the bet, wanna stick now?!

You mean I generously let you off the hook, otherwise you would be owing me a N9 since it never made it to market in Q3 2011 ? OK, what is the bet ? I can't wait to see you try to define specific numbers, targets and deadlines instead of the usual.

[False Morel]

Can you please make your mind up ? Is Elop doing a good job or are Nokia in a shithole ? Both cannot be true at the same time.

Nokia dipped themselves in the shithole way before Elop arrived!
No matter who would have arrived for the rescue, he had one heck of job ahead of him!

And regardless of how Elop has done, or anybody else would have done, the situation would have worsened! What was there that could have been done to keep Nokia at their place or in the same group with Apple and Samsung throughout the past year?! Nothing.

Regardless of the plan, be it Nokia shifting to any other platform, or staying with the Qt-based ecosystem, it would have taken at least two years for them to bounce back! Why? I think you this answer pretty well!

I don't do religion, I do facts. So do the Nokia shareholders who apparently are finally getting around to calling an emergency metting to fire the moron.

Elop is going nowhere before the WP8 debut. We are yet to see whether all what he did was the right move and would pay off or not!
You and some others already made up your minds, and me and many others are still wondering based on what you made up your mind!

The numbers you quoted are meaningless btw. And although no need to elaborate on that, but again for a reminder, Elop went for a long term solution not a short one to keep Nokia alive/at the top then see where to go further! And whether his long term solution is the right one, we are yet to see, and it has nothing to do with the recent numbers as these numbers are still a reflection of where the pre-Elop Nokia was heading.
I'm not sure if I can make my point any clearer than that, regardless of the fact whether you would agree or not which is another point.

You mean I generously let you off the hook, otherwise you would be owing me a N9 since it never made it to market in Q3 2011 ? OK, what is the bet ? I can't wait to see you try to define specific numbers, targets and deadlines instead of the usual.

The N9 was released in Q3. And regardless, you were claiming that Nokia wont have made it till the end of the year if not the next year!

Actually since Elop took over, many things ex-Nokia experts predicted turned out wrong! Very wrong. Not just the release of the N9 which is a minor detail at the end.

[93tid]

As usual, empty statements without a single fact to support them and complete disimissal of publicly released information incl. from Nokia themselves. We have nothing further to discuss here. Hopefully this has been useful for rational people who might have ventured into this thread and do not dismiss things beyond their understanding as meaningless.

[False Morel]

Hopefully this has been useful for rational people who might have ventured into this thread and do not dismiss things beyond their understanding as meaningless.

LOL

Anyway, for any rational person over here, it's very clear what you and some others are doing over here with such threads.
Anyone usingTomi's logic can't be taken seriously for that matter. It's just that one has to apply some reality checks every now and then in order to expose certain things.

We will get to talk after 5th Sept. and maybe after Q4. You may have then some relevant numbers to use as "proofs" that we can actually discuss.

[dynomot]

Your blind faith in the M$ puppet Elop False Morel has left me, well words fail TBH. "Astounded" doesn't cover it as that would hint at surprise. Nokia are finished as an independent phone manufacturer and almost certainly as an independent company, The announcement of a WP8 at the same time as the Iphone 5 launch/announcement is Elop all over. From being suspicious of him wanting to destroy Nokia so M$ can pick on it's carcass I'm now convinced of it.

The facts (stated by 93tid) simply don't add up to support any other rational argument : Either Elop is a moron and Nokia is a dead company trading or Elop is a genius (for M$) and Nokia is still a dead company trading.

Nokia are toast, I give them 'til Q2 2013 at most before they become part of M$ at best or disappear altogether.

[False Morel]

You simply don't want Nokia to succeed with WP8. That's all of it. Even irrational readers can recognize this one!
There is a wave of smartphones enthusiasts that are desperately against WP and against any WP success altogether; not just Nokia.

Anyway, like I always said, it's of course a valid possibility that Elop fails and Nokia head further into the obsolete. But to be dead sure about this one, using Tomi's arguments as well, is the highly suspicious part..

Waiting three months isn't much. We are to see where Nokia are exactly heading pretty soon. No need to be dead sure about anything as of yet!

[Bartmanekul]

Waiting three months isn't much. We are to see where Nokia are exactly heading pretty soon. No need to be dead sure about anything as of yet!

I'm sure you said this about the last batch of Lumias. Fact is, you have referenced no facts, no figures, and will be dissapointed with the outcome.

[False Morel]

I'm sure you said this about the last batch of Lumias. Fact is, you have referenced no facts, no figures, and will be dissapointed with the outcome.

I thought you don't reply to my posts?!

Anyway, you can go back to all my previous posts, and see for yourself that I was calling to wait for WP8 Nokia releases and that 2012 Q4 and early 2013 will have the big say on Nokia's future.

Ironically, almost everyone over here did agree back then.

As to facts and figures, we will get them pretty soon. Be it proving my predictions right or otherwise..
As to your Tomi's facts and figures, read my comments above.

[Bartmanekul]

Don't know why I bothered talking to that fanboy.

[dynomot]

You simply don't want Nokia to succeed with WP8. That's all of it. Even irrational readers can recognize this one!
There is a wave of smartphones enthusiasts that are desperately against WP and against any WP success altogether; not just Nokia.

I'm not sure if the first sentence was for me, I'll post as if it were.

Of course I want Nokia to succeed with WP8, I want Nokia to succeed period. I am a Nokia fan, in homage to my Nokia days my SGS II notification is "Nokia message tone 2" from my N95 and it's system font is Nokia Pure. I still use my N900 and think it's browser (Micro B) is still second to none.

My problem with your arguments False Morel is that it (Nokia) hasn't succeeded, it's failed, massively. Put away the arguments and debates about WP v Android V IOS, this isn't about that. It's about Nokia, Mr.Elop and the figures. The facts are as plain as the nose on your face, they are not selling enough. The flagship has been torpedoed by not getting W8. The current crop that last year you were making the same arguments for haven't sold enough. Nokia is rapidly sliding into oblivion and staring a hostile take over by someone like Microsoft who can use it's hardware patents and factories to produce a purely Microsoft WP phone.

Anyway, like I always said, it's of course a valid possibility that Elop fails and Nokia head further into the obsolete.

As a CEO Elop has failed and made Nokia a basket case company. As a M$ Mole he's done a fantastic job for Nokia to become a small cog in the Windows world fully controlled by them.

Time's up, on Elop and Nokia. Both, as I said are toast. Nokia/Microsoft administered that by denying the flagship Lumia, a less than a year old device an update. Now to your average Joe in the street this may mean nothing, but even average Joe's can be swayed into think WP and by assoication Nokia phones are crap (even if they're not !) because Lumias of all levels are being given away (literally) by the networks and the likes of CPW in readiness for the next shiny bright new thing that may or may not get an update. It matters not that WP7 will get up to WP7.8, Nokia, the media, made it sound obsolete at that announcement and Microsoft ploughed on with WP8. What happened to giving the updates gradually and finding a way to make WP8 work on a at least a Lumia 900 ? It was the fatal mistake, because all your average Joe hears is buy a Nokia Windows phone and it'll be obsolete half way through a two year contract.

[93tid]

As to your Tomi's facts and figures, read my comments above.

Your comment is that they should be ignored because they are Tomi's - not because they are incorrect, wrong or misleading in any way. You cannot put up a single item of independent data which disputes these facts or figures, so you just dismiss them because you don't like them. No arguments, just empty statements. OK, let's see what happens in 3 months. Or in 6 months.

[False Morel]

Your comment is that they should be ignored because they are Tomi's - not because they are incorrect, wrong or misleading in any way. You cannot put up a single item of independent data which disputes these facts or figures, so you just dismiss them because you don't like them. No arguments, just empty statements.

Two reasons I consider Tomi's numbers irrelevant.

First, to me, and many others, Tomi is not considered a reliable source of any data and by a far shot.
Secondly, let's suppose the numbers are all right (many numbers you posted are surely right), they are irrelevant to Nokia's future with WP! This is the point I'm talking about and I don't think it's empty statements at all; specially that not long ago you yourself agreed fully with me!

We discussed back then that Elop big mistake so far was the handling of Symbian. As he and everyone knew that Nokia needed at least 18 months to start making any grounds with WP devices, and that in this time they had to rely on Symbian sales.
He killed Symbian way too quickly.

But regardless, I don't really think Nokia would have sold much more Symbians in that time. They would have still slipped in the volume sales, and still made negative profits.

What is important is the long term solution to work out. That is WP. We are yet not sure how this will eventually turn out for Nokia. It could be a total disaster leading to Elop's sacking, or it could slowly get Nokia back into the race with Samsung and Apple..

OK, let's see what happens in 3 months. Or in 6 months.

Sept. 5th should tell us a lot about Nokia's chances. And don't worry, if Nokia dissappoint, I'd be the first one to say it out loud.
After that, Q4 results should reflect to us where Nokia could be heading.

My problem with your arguments False Morel is that it (Nokia) hasn't succeeded, it's failed, massively. Put away the arguments and debates about WP v Android V IOS, this isn't about that. It's about Nokia, Mr.Elop and the figures. The facts are as plain as the nose on your face, they are not selling enough. The flagship has been torpedoed by not getting W8. The current crop that last year you were making the same arguments for haven't sold enough. Nokia is rapidly sliding into oblivion and staring a hostile take over by someone like Microsoft who can use it's hardware patents and factories to produce a purely Microsoft WP phone.

As a complement to the stated above in reply to 93tid, even if Nokia would have met the sales aims for the first Lumia batch, it wouldn't have meant that Nokia's future is secured!

Selling 4 millions or 8 millions Lumias doesn't matter much. They would still be very far from Apple and Samsung, and belong to the same group with HTC, RIM, Sony, LG, etc..
Nokia's current Lumia batch was just the entry into the market. Marketing the Lumia brand and of course selling as much as possible. But no one was expecting the first Lumia batch starting with the Lumia 800 was going to already be a major money maker for Nokia competing with the Galaxies and iPhones!
The fact that they got positive reviews and welcomes from the media and tech enthusiasts is enough for me. It set the whole tech world to anticipate the next step from Nokia regardless of their current poor sales and the fact that WP as a whole is still a tiny player in the smartphone market.

Nokia's first true WP8 devices, with true development cycle, will be the coming WP8 batch announced on Sept. 5th.
Doesn't mean that Nokia will change their fortunes up from that date. But to me, we should at least first wait and see what they have prepared for us, and then decide on their future. Right from the moment when they announced the shift in strategies on Feb 11th 2011, everybody said Nokia won't deliver competitive products before Q4 2012.

Q4 will be decisive quarter for Nokia. Be it into the positive or negative direction.

As a CEO Elop has failed and made Nokia a basket case company. As a M$ Mole he's done a fantastic job for Nokia to become a small cog in the Windows world fully controlled by them.

These stays as a conspiracy theory. At least for now.

Time's up, on Elop and Nokia. Both, as I said are toast. Nokia/Microsoft administered that by denying the flagship Lumia, a less than a year old device an update. Now to your average Joe in the street this may mean nothing, but even average Joe's can be swayed into think WP and by assoication Nokia phones are crap (even if they're not !) because Lumias of all levels are being given away (literally) by the networks and the likes of CPW in readiness for the next shiny bright new thing that may or may not get an update. It matters not that WP7 will get up to WP7.8, Nokia, the media, made it sound obsolete at that announcement and Microsoft ploughed on with WP8. What happened to giving the updates gradually and finding a way to make WP8 work on a at least a Lumia 900 ? It was the fatal mistake, because all your average Joe hears is buy a Nokia Windows phone and it'll be obsolete half way through a two year contract.

Nokia took a major blow with the denied WP8 updates to current Lumia batch. We already discussed that.
But how is Elop to be blamed for that? Or even Nokia?

[dk206]

Nokia took a major blow with the denied WP8 updates to current Lumia batch. We already discussed that.
But how is Elop to be blamed for that? Or even Nokia?

Maybe if Nokia provided the latest hardware for when the lumia series was actually launched WP8 updates wouldn't be a problem?
Look at Android phones. Yes Google needs to release first obviously but its also the OEM's job to manage and maintain updates.
I've been reading this thread and its started to get a little out of hand? no?

LOL!!! And how should Elop and Nokia not be blamed? It was their decision in venturing with WP in the first place.
I'm just commenting from results. Look at the outcome. Look at the figures, numbers and facts. Need not to look elsewhere
Nokia has failed miserably. At this rate, WP8 isn't going to help them anymore than WP7 did.

[BubbaHotepUK]

Ironically, WP8 has probably been given a huge boost by the outcome of the US Apple vs Samsung trial.

Nokia could be a beneficiary here, but equally if Samsung refocuses on WP8 phones, Nokia could suddenly have a real competitor the size & shape of which they've never had to deal with before. It's one thing competing with e.g. Apple, where the market & dempogrpahics for Symbian & iOS are somewhat different. However, if they are going head to head with Samsung with an identical operating system offering, that's a completely different story, and I'm not certain Nokia (headed by Elop or otherwise), know how to deal with that. I'm very worried.

It's vital that the next bunch of Nokia phones are hugely over-specified, to give confidence that they aren't a dead-end, like the current Nokia offerings.

Samsung were criticised for the SGS2 specs - who really needed that power? Now we know the SGS2 is getting an official Jellybean upgrade - that's 3 major releases of Android. No doubt the SGS3 will eat Key Lime Pie with aplomb.

The next Nokia releases need to convince me they will have a two year lifespan minimum plus some major hardware differentation (PureView?), plus a very competitive price point if they want to stand apart from an SGS3 under a WP8 wrapper.

[Bartmanekul]

Your right about them needing to up the specs - people do look at specs, and you made a very good point about them actually needing that power. I'm sure theres a few on here who argued their back teeth about the uneeded power of the SGS2 (and others) who are regretting their words.Well, at least privately they might be!

And if companies like Samsung are able to offer that power at a reasonable price, used fully or not, how can they lose? You can bet the S3 will still be cheaper than the new iphone, so it's not like people won't buy it.

I still haven't seen evidence of Nokia being able to produce well specced phones quickly enough, one of their main weaknesses many of us pointed out over a year ago.

If Samsung do decide to jump into W8 with gusto - and tbh I can't see it happening myself - at current effort Nokia stand no chance of keeping up.

[BubbaHotepUK]

The "Things are about to change" teaser video is already being ridiculed ...

Nokia reckons 'things are about to change' in video teaser | News | TechRadar

Personally I find these "sell a lifestyle, not a product" adverts even more annoying than the old Apple ads too, but that is an individual preference. Even Apple now show you what products will actually do.

[Bartmanekul]

But was it on par with a blind man taking photos?

To be fair, what can they advertise? Theres nothing that stands out with W8, bar tiles. It simply cannot do as much as Android or IOS because there isn't a fraction of the apps. Not to mention hardware restrictions, which I beleive some are still prevailent in W8?

[93tid]

Shame that others can't seem to wait until September 5th - Exclusive: Samsung to launch 4.8-inch ATIV S Windows Phone 8 device | The Verge

[SC00BY]

Not bad specs either, update here
Samsung Ativ S officially announced: 4.8-inch 720p display, Windows Phone 8 | The Verge
:-)
here
Samsung ATIV S - Full phone specifications
and here
Samsung ATIV S is the first official Windows Phone 8 smartphone - GSMArena.com news

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 PM ----------

Kinda sets the bar for Nokia to beat, match or slump under ?

[False Morel]

It's a bit surprising that Samsung revealed their WP8 flagship that early, specially that they didn't reveal anything beyond the expectations.

As to Nokia's flagship's basic specs, even the prototype MS used to demonstrate WP8 back in June, and was made by Nokia, featured the same specs as the Samsung ATIV S:

Dual core Krait, 1 GB RAM, NFC, Bluetooth 3.0, HD resolution, memory slot...

The sole difference I'm expecting that Nokia's flaghship most probably won't feature a 4.8" SuperAmoled.. But not less than a 4.3" one as well..

The special things to expect from Nokia are still the same: Unique high-quality design, camera (probably PureView; if not then at least something considerably better than the competition), some differentiating location-based apps and features, and probably some exclusive apps due to newly made deals..

Anything less than that would be dissappointing really.. We shall see..
At least this time over, they had enough time to develop a true flagship ran through a complete development cycle.. They have no excuses!

EDIT: The ATIV S doesn't feature 4G!
It's an international version I guess, not an American one, and even their GSIII 4G version hasn't rolled out yet, but here's one point for Nokia to make use of!

The "Things are about to change" teaser video is already being ridiculed ...

Nokia reckons 'things are about to change' in video teaser | News | TechRadar

Personally I find these "sell a lifestyle, not a product" adverts even more annoying than the old Apple ads too, but that is an individual preference. Even Apple now show you what products will actually do.

That was one hell of a silly teaser!! I've seen even sillier teasers though. :P

[BubbaHotepUK]

Hurrah - memory card support is back for WP8, that's one *huge* barrier to entry removed from me. Though it'll be interesting to see if the memory cards can actually be moved between devices - something the first WP7 devices didn't allow (unless you had a Symbian Nokia phone to reformat the card - irony on irony).

[False Morel]

Hurrah - memory card support is back for WP8, that's one *huge* barrier to entry removed from me. Though it'll be interesting to see if the memory cards can actually be moved between devices - something the first WP7 devices didn't allow (unless you had a Symbian Nokia phone to reformat the card - irony on irony).

This time over it's a true memory card support.
Before that, there was actually no memory card support for WP!
Only one device, the HD7s for At&t had that slot, but it was burried inside as far as I remember so one can't directly access it. And it had that funny formatting protocol that disallowed hot swapping..

And btw, we have yet to see what WP8 is really about.
Back in June, Microsoft only gave us the so called "Sneak Peak" highlighting the major areas they worked on. But regarding specific features and details we know nothing yet!

We should know all about it on Sept. 5th as it will not be only about Nokia, but also a joint conference shared with Microsoft to reveal WP8 completely and demonstrate it again on Nokia hardware, this time over, final hardware ready for production..

And note that some of the features being rumored to be arriving, surprisingly the Bluetooth file transfer being one of them, is the working of Nokia. They pushed MS to implement these features due to customers' pressure and complaints!

Ex-Nokia users simply didn't accept an iOS-like limited system. Specially those coming from Symbian. And Nokia made sure MS understood that. My own guess is that the memory expansion is also the working of Nokia as MS was against such features labeling them as outdated as we're going into the world of the cloud!

[Bartmanekul]

And note that some of the features being rumored to be arriving, surprisingly the Bluetooth file transfer being one of them, is the working of Nokia. They pushed MS to implement these features due to customers' pressure and complaints!

Proof please, with source?

[False Morel]

Proof please, with source?

Here's one link..
BUT as I said, the news itself that Bluetooth file transfer is arriving is a rumor. Nothing confirmed yet.

But I saw some MS conferences where they explained the ommisions of Bluetooth file transfer. Same arguments used by Apple. What do you think made them change their minds now?
Even if Nokia didn't push for it themselves, the feedbacks for such a feature came from Lumia users more than anyone else. Check the MS support forums for that.

And we already saw Nokia pushing for low budget version of WP to run it on real low ends smartphones. The 610 was the first implementation but Nokia promised even lower prices even beating those Android Chinese OEM smartphones! As in expecting real low-ends ala the real flagship that should be annouced soon..We shall see about that.

So the fact that they have a big say in the development of WP is a fact not just talks. And the deal between both companies says so with MS admitting it.
And note that only Nokia are running a separate WP development program and courses along with MS. Mainly to move their Qt and Symbian devs with, but also running the programs for everybody. Specially in Europe!
Visit Nokia's dev homepage for more info if you're interested.

[Wookie]

I currently am looking at the WP8 phones that are coming out to replace my N8. It still works just fine but I'm ready to move on and try something new. A big concern of mine is making sure that AT&T does not carry it so that I won't have to change my data plan. The Samsung looked interesting for about 10 seconds, or as long as it took me to read it doesn't support LTE. Hopefully the upcoming Nokias won't let me down.

On an interesting note, most of the article I read about the Samsung and Samsung Vs. crApple make mention of WP. It seems to be the general consensus that Samsung will be looking to diversify some in order to avoid future lawsuits. Most point to more WP phones to accomplish this.

[BubbaHotepUK]

Yes, I'd be very surprised if Samsung don't put a lot of effort into the Windows 8 ecosystem. At IFA they have announced a whole bunch of tablets, laptops and erm, tabtops supporting Windows 8, so it makes sense to support Windows Phone 8 in a big way. Microsoft seems like a safe port in a storm, with Microsoft and Apple are playing nicely with patents at the moment.

Interesting to note that Samsung have Apple by the proverbial short & curlies over LTE patents though. Looks like iPad 3 infringes a bunch of Samsung patents already, but they are waiting to see if Apple use the same tech in iPhone 5. He who laughs last.....

---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

Okay, so if this is true, and PureView in the 920 is the same as in the 808, I think Nokia may be back in the game!
Nokia Lumia 920 Pureview and Lumia 820 leaked on Twitter | News | TechRadar

[Bartmanekul]

Even if Nokia didn't push for it themselves, the feedbacks for such a feature came from Lumia users more than anyone else. Check the MS support forums for that.

So no proof that Nokia actually did anything. As I thought.

Microsoft seems like a safe port in a storm, with Microsoft and Apple are playing nicely with patents at the moment.

I do wonder if that will continue if Microsoft gain Nokia's patents, because they do have an awful lot, possibly the most.

[False Morel]

So no proof that Nokia actually did anything. As I thought.

I did mention that the whole Bluetooth news is a rumor, let alone who's behind, be it Nokia or MS!

Anyway, Nokia being also partners in the platform development is a fact. And who's behind which feature does't matter to the end consumer and the perception of the end product after all.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

Yes, I'd be very surprised if Samsung don't put a lot of effort into the Windows 8 ecosystem. At IFA they have announced a whole bunch of tablets, laptops and erm, tabtops supporting Windows 8, so it makes sense to support Windows Phone 8 in a big way. Microsoft seems like a safe port in a storm, with Microsoft and Apple are playing nicely with patents at the moment.

Interesting to note that Samsung have Apple by the proverbial short & curlies over LTE patents though. Looks like iPad 3 infringes a bunch of Samsung patents already, but they are waiting to see if Apple use the same tech in iPhone 5. He who laughs last.....

Samsung, not long ago, signed a deal with MS obliging them to produce, and help and market and develop WP products!
That came when they lost the court case and had to pay MS royalties on each sold Android device. To limit the royalties paid, they struck that deal..

So Samsung going full power into the Windows ecosystem is guaranteed!

Okay, so if this is true, and PureView in the 920 is the same as in the 808, I think Nokia may be back in the game!
Nokia Lumia 920 Pureview and Lumia 820 leaked on Twitter | News | TechRadar

It seems PureView is coming on Sept. 5th to Lumias!
This is some great news. There were more than hint about it before this recent leak also. One of them At&t CEO (as far as I remember) stating few months ago that the PureView coming Lumias pretty soon..

But I'm afraid it won't be the same PureView featured on the 808!
Specially of those renders leaked, turn out to be true..

I hope though that the end result would still be statisfying and not just some publicity stunt by Nokia using the brand PureView to lure customers in!

[dynomot]

Even if W8 delivers all that is rumoured and promised and Nokia deliver hardware wise with a range of devices from low end to a stonking beast of a device at a reasonable price, which I assume we all hope. Will it be enough to save them from, well, let's be frank here, themselves ? Or have they blown it and made too many mistakes, fallen too far behind the curve and are now a dead corporation trading ?

While I sincerely hope not, I think probably. I guess we'll have a clearer idea post September 5th (my birthday incidentally)

[False Morel]

Here's a good article from Phonearena titled: What would make a Nokia Lumia better than the Samsung Ativ S?

In brief, the points they raised are:
- PureView
- Huge CBD RGB display
- Software: Nokia Drive, Nokia Reading, Nokia Transport, and what other stuff Nokia may have as exclusives.. (they have Mix Radio, and exclusive deals with Rovio, ESPN, CNN, Electronic Arts, Groupon, and more..)
- Design: unique and premium material
- Pricing and availablity, specially that the ATIV S release date is unkown yet.

There is one point they forgot about: LTE! If Nokia releases their phones LTE in Europe as well US, then this would be a big factor to their side. There is a big chance that the iPhone ges LTE only in the US, and the big Androids guys still not released with LTE version in Europe.

Nokia commented on the ATIV S on Twitter: "Every great show needs a warm-up act."
Those are some aggressive bold words!

To me, I doubt that the Nokia 920 won't surpass the ATIV S!
But will it compete with the GSIII and the iPhone 5?! This is the big and decisive question.

[Wookie]

...There is one point they forgot about: LTE! If Nokia releases their phones LTE in Europe as well US, then this would be a big factor to their side. There is a big chance that the iPhone ges LTE only in the US, and the big Androids guys still not released with LTE version in Europe..

That brings up another question for me. Will the LTE frequencies be the same in the US and Europe? I'm just starting to look into upgrading to LTE and that's a big thing for me since I do travel and one phone that works everywhere like my N8 is a nice thing to have.

[False Morel]

That brings up another question for me. Will the LTE frequencies be the same in the US and Europe? I'm just starting to look into upgrading to LTE and that's a big thing for me since I do travel and one phone that works everywhere like my N8 is a nice thing to have.

Good point.. That pentaband of the N8 was pretty useful..

Not sure really.. Maybe some over here could shed more light on this.. But I think it could also depend on what network are you on in the US!
The safest being At&t of course..

UPDATE:

From Wiki:
The LTE standard can be used with many different frequency bands. In North America, 700/ 800 and 1,700/ 1,900 MHz are planned to be used; 800, 1,800, 2,600 MHz in Europe; 1,800 and 2,600 MHz in Asia; and 1,800 MHz in Australia.[30][31][32][33][34][35] As a result, phones from one country may not work in other countries. Users will need a multi-band capable phone for roaming internationally.

There will be again 5 major bands used!
Good thing about LTE though, it will standardized all over the world. No more different networks as in GSM and CDMA.. But different frequencies still apply.

Here's a list with the operators and their respective LTE frequencies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LTE_networks

[Wookie]

I looked a little more and from this article it will only get worse. It seems that 4 GSM, 5 3G and 12 LTE frequencies will be needed to operate everywhere. It also says that even though AT&T and Verizion will operate in the 700Mhz range Verizion is locking its phones and network from other carriers.

I'm on AT&T and plan on staying there. T-Mobile lacks the rural coverage, 3G and now LTE for them to work for me. Their lack of LTE was the main reason they were trying to sell out to AT&T. The FCC blocked that and as a result AT&T had to give a portion of LTE spectrum to T-Mobile. So far they haven't done much with it.

[False Morel]

Then time for Nokia to come up with a dodecaband antenna!! (dodeca for twelve as penta for five).

On a serious note, while this is definitely some bad news, scanning that list from Wiki with the most used frequencies by operators over the world, a pentaband or hexaband would do:
700/800, 1700/1800/1900, 2600

This should cover all networks..
For instance when you travel to another country, you won't need to connect to all frequencies used there. Just the one frequency your phone roams into. Usually there are deals between operators for roaming. And frequencies are taken into consideration of course..

For At&t won't strike a deal with an operator in Germany which doesn't utilizes any of the its used frequencies in the US.

Same applies if you go get a local sim card in that country. You'd pick an operator which is compatible with your phone. And if your phone uses a pentaband, you're surely to find at least one compatible operator..