Nokia pure view announced 41mp
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  1. #1
    Nokia Guru cambo's Avatar
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    Nokia pure view announced 41mp

    The link below announcing the pure view..pretty sexy. Courtesy of Engadget
    Nokia announces 808 PureView: Belle OS, 4-inch display, 41-megapixel camera(!) (video) -- Engadget

    And Nokia press release here

    http://press.nokia.com/2012/02/27/no...phone-imaging/
    Last edited by cambo; 02-27-2012 at 09:47 AM.

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    Moderator 93tid's Avatar
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    And here's the full spec page:

    Nokia Europe - Nokia 808 PureView with 41 MP camera

    I want one !
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    not for me ive been stung too many times by nokia and things that put me off straight away are:

    battery life - 4" screen , 1.3ghz cpu , xenon flash , battery needs to be decent even though symbian is efficent
    the build of the phone - looks pretty fat and that camera hump is gonna get scratched or the curved screen will when placed down
    512mb ram doesnt seem enough to future proof the device at all , 1gb ram wouldnt of hurt nokias pockets that much and would have future proofed it alot more
    devolopment of symbian apps and games
    screen resoloution on a 4" screen , viewing them great pics on that screen will be pointless

    for me its again a great camera phone with some limiting factors and areas that have again been skimped on (ram etc) and will no doubt have userabillity issues like a decent web browser and lack of apps that simplify things like ebay apps and amazon apps etc etc

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    Nokia Guru cambo's Avatar
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    I also see they have gone back to a removable battery

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    Moderator 93tid's Avatar
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    Here's a bit more detailed specs:

    Device Details -- Nokia 808 PureView
    "Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic."

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    As a question: Do people use their phone for recording video as much these days?

    I know years ago I used to record stuff, but can honestly say I've not recorded anything in best part of 6 months. Pictures, yes but not recording.

    Just wondered if 1080p FullHD Recording with Dolby Digital True Recording etc etc is still a grab feature to most people?

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    Moderator 93tid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buxz777 View Post
    not for me ive been stung too many times by nokia and things that put me off straight away are:

    battery life - 4" screen , 1.3ghz cpu , xenon flash , battery needs to be decent even though symbian is efficent
    the build of the phone - looks pretty fat and that camera hump is gonna get scratched or the curved screen will when placed down
    512mb ram doesnt seem enough to future proof the device at all , 1gb ram wouldnt of hurt nokias pockets that much and would have future proofed it alot more
    devolopment of symbian apps and games
    screen resoloution on a 4" screen , viewing them great pics on that screen will be pointless

    for me its again a great camera phone with some limiting factors and areas that have again been skimped on (ram etc) and will no doubt have userabillity issues like a decent web browser and lack of apps that simplify things like ebay apps and amazon apps etc etc
    Based on the battery life of the 603 I am currently trialling (3 days with everything on - data, wifi, bluetooth, use of maps, iplayer, etc.) I cannot even consider battery life as an issue.

    Form factor - that's very personal. I could not comment without holding it myself.

    RAM - agree.

    Apps and games - personally couldn't care less, everything I need is available now.

    I am not really troubled about viewing pics or videos on the phone's screen when you have TV-Out, HDMI-Out and DLNA support.
    "Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic."

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    Nokia User holzlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moz View Post
    As a question: Do people use their phone for recording video as much these days?

    I know years ago I used to record stuff, but can honestly say I've not recorded anything in best part of 6 months. Pictures, yes but not recording.

    Just wondered if 1080p FullHD Recording with Dolby Digital True Recording etc etc is still a grab feature to most people?
    I'm a serious camera phone fan, and take all my pictures with my N8. I don't own another camera any more.

    But, to be fair, even though the N8 really does quite good video, I have hardly ever used it for video. Don't know, I think it's the form factor. I feel like a video camera should feel and look like a video camera. That's why, for a long time I was on the verge of getting the old N93 or N93i, because of the form factor. They looked like video cameras.

    I think that it is quite enticing to shoot 1080p videos with real 4x zoom, but once the novelty wears off, I won't use it that much.


    Oh, and general feedback on the 808, I think it's my next phone. I probably have to wait another year, financially, and maybe we'll see a Lumia PureView by then. That might be a real alternative. But for now, I would say, this phone would be my digital camera with a built-in smart phone. I'm looking forward to getting one....

    My Nokia History....

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    Does anyone know why it has a camera hump? It doesn't make the phone look attractive at all.

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    I see a phone with a really nice feature put needlessly onto a dead platform.

    I personally don't see the rush in getting it out, I'd think that it would benefit them far more in waiting till they can put this on WP, and get some more onto that platform by tempting the camera/video fans.
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    Moderator 93tid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSuper View Post
    Does anyone know why it has a camera hump? It doesn't make the phone look attractive at all.
    To fit in the sensor and optics. N8 has one, Razr has one, I don't really mind it but can only pass judgement after holding the real thing.

    ---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanekul View Post
    I see a phone with a really nice feature put needlessly onto a dead platform.

    I personally don't see the rush in getting it out, I'd think that it would benefit them far more in waiting till they can put this on WP, and get some more onto that platform by tempting the camera/video fans.
    Unfortunately none of the live platforms can support that feature yet. Maybe WP Apollo will be able to eventually.
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    I suspect it's Nokia testing the market too - it will answer the question "how well will a device built around a specific feature sell, irrespective of the operating system". This will give them a lot information, and a possible "Plan B" should Windows Phone fail to make much market impact.

    Sometimes though, I can't help thinking Nokia would be better off just making cameras

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    If the picture quality is alot better than N8, then I may consider to upgrade to this phone.

    I am OK with the OS..Apps and games are enough for me ...yeah I want more apps/games on this platform but it's not a big deal for me.

    BUT I am not jumping into this phone b/c the hardware:
    1. not dual-core or quad-core...China is coming out a phone with quad-core???
    2. only 512 MB of RAM.
    3. still use low-res screen...not a big deal for me.
    4. should have at least 32MB of internal memory.
    5. the memory slot not support new format that support 64GB or higher???
    6. the back cover is not metal??? Can someone confirm this?

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    Moderator 93tid's Avatar
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    1. What's the point if it's not required ? In full HD video mode the image processing pipeline handles easily over 1 billion pixels per second. That's a testament to how efficient Symbian is. Dual-core and quad-core is for poorly-coded OS which need all that processing overkill to run just as fast.
    2. Same as above
    5. Other members here have already tested 64GB cards successfully in handsets, I am sure it will be the same for the 808

    No one seems to have noticed, so I might as well mention it now - the 808 has both Xenon AND LED flash, for stills and video respectively ?
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    Nokia Genius NAVVARR's Avatar
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    This is the phone I've been waiting for- I use my N8 extensively for video and photos- as well as all the usual hi end Nokia features.

    41MP makes me drool- I can't see me changing phone if I get one of these beasts.

    As for symbian being a dead OS??? - why haven't people written off Windows?? or any other OS thats been around for years?? -why pick on symbian??


    The symbian in your N8 or C7 or any other relatively modern phone is lightyears ahead of the symbian used 5 or 10 years ago... same goes for Windows or any other OS that has matured.
    Personally I find Symbian very easy to use- I'm not interested in moving to Android or anything else any time soon.

    Spec wise- seems similar to the N8 - is there anything missing?

    -one other thing- i reckon it could do with 32GB internal memory- 16GB strikes me as a bit mean- perhaps hopefully that might be revised upwards by release date.

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    Unfortunately none of the live platforms can support that feature yet. Maybe WP Apollo will be able to eventually.
    I know, hence my comment. I really do think it's worth the time it takes for it to become compatible. Then at least, Wp would have a handset with quite a notable 'first'.

    As for symbian being a dead OS???
    Because it is, they have stopped development as Belle is the last major update to come out.
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    Thanks for the thread Cambo.. Today's revealed tech by Nokia surely deserves our attention!!

    I urge every member to read this whitepaper released by Nokia and written by Juha Alakarhu, Damian Dinning, and Eero Salmelin "on behalf on many dedicated Nokia imaging experts": http://europe.nokia.com/PRODUCT_META...Whitepaper.pdf

    And here are the most important quotes:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Quality, not quantity
    People will inevitably home in on the number of pixels the Nokia 808 PureView packs, but they’re missing the point. The ‘big deal’ is how they’re used. At Nokia, our focus has always been capability and performance.
    The main way to build smaller cameras over the years has been to reduce the pixel size. These have shrunk just over the past 6 years from 2.2 microns, to 1.75 microns, to 1.4 microns (which is where most compact digital cameras and smartphones are today). Some new products are on the way with
    1.1 micron pixels. But here’s the problem. The smaller the pixel, the less photons each pixel is able to collect. Less photons, less image quality. There’s also more visual noise in images/videos, and various other knock on effects. In our experience, when new, smaller pixel size sensors are first released, they
    tend to be worse than the previous generation. While others jump in, banking on pixel numbers instead of performance, we prefer to skip early iterations.


    Lessons learned
    With the 12Mpix Nokia N8, for example, we were more concerned with capturing photons of light than ramping up the number of megapixels. We bucked the trend and went with a large sensor and 1.75 micron pixels — but the result was a new benchmark in image and video quality. This set the Nokia N8
    apart at the time, and competitors are still trying to match it two years later. The Nokia PureView Pro comes is equipped with an even larger sensor, 1/1.2” approximately 2.5 larger than the sensor used in the Nokia N8. The result is an even larger area to collect photons of light. With PureView we’re
    continuing to make choices focused on performance rather than pixels for pixels’ sake. Fewer but better pixels can provide not just better image and video quality, but better overall user experience and system capability.


    In fact, 5Mpix-6Mpix is more than enough for viewing images on PC, TV, online or smartphones.
    After all, how often do we print images bigger than even A4?

    Why the megapixel fixation?
    It all stems from the very early days of digital cameras, when image quality was affected by the limited number of pixels available. As the pixel numbers increased, image quality dramatically improved.
    However, once the resolution reached around 5Mpix-6Mpix, the real-world benefits became debatable.
    But by then, the market had made a direct correlation between number of pixels and quality of image.
    The more pixels the better, was the received wisdom. And this thinking has stuck. Though today manufacturers would happily reduce the number of pixels in their cameras, and instead concentrate on their lenses and sensors, they’re not so sure the market would accept this.

    But let’s consider why you might need more than 5Mpix. The most popular argument we hear is the
    versatility the extra pixels provide. Specifically the ability to crop images or create large prints.

    Printing
    If you rarely print your images or don’t need them larger than A3 size, 5Mpix is more than enough.
    In fact, you can get superb poster prints as large as 50 x 75cm (the size limit of most commercial printers) from very good quality 3Mpix images. Of course, if your needs are different, there is a higher resolution 8Mpix setting and a ‘full resolution’ mode on the Nokia 808 PureView.

    If you only ever view images on TV, PC or tablet, or upload to social sharing sites, we’ve provided an ideal 2Mpix lower-resolution setting. Oversampling is even greater here, and there’s an increased lossless zoom range too, as can be seen in Figure 2.

    Introducing… Slide Zoom
    The Nokia 808 PureView uses a new zoom concept called Slide Zoom. Conventional zoom can be slow and imprecise, and sometimes you need to make adjustments to get the exact framing you need.
    Pinch to Zoom is great for viewing afterwards, but not so good for composition, especially video, where you need smoothness of movement.
    Slide Zoom is fast, direct and precise — it gets the framing right first time. All you have to do is slide your finger up or down on the display to interact. There’s no need to touch a specific UI element on the display.

    As you move your finger on the display, a ‘frame’ appears on the screen which moves in sync with your finger. This allows you to preview the framing before committing, which is particularly useful for video recording. The moment you lift your finger from the display, it zooms directly to this setting.
    And because zooming uses the Nokia PureView Pro sensor rather than moving optics, it’s silent too.


    More processing power
    One of the reasons the Nokia 808 PureView has taken so long to develop is down to processing power.
    We simply couldn’t get hold of enough. Even the most powerful mobile chipsets have an upper limit of around 20Mpix image processing capability. The Nokia 808 PureView eats up more than double that.
    For video, the amount of pixels handled through the processing chain is staggering — over 1 billion pixels per second, and 16x oversampling. That’s a throughput of pixels 16 times greater than many other smartphones.
    Most smartphone manufacturers crop off a section of the sensor to ease the processing load.
    By contrast, the Nokia 808 PureView has no limited field of view. Plus, it provides lossless zooming capability, which is output resolution dependent. Full HD 1080p gives you 4x zoom. For 720p HD video, you’re looking at 6x lossless zoom. And for nHD (640x360) video, an amazing 12x zoom! In addition, we are encoding at up to 25mbps in high profile H.264 format.

    To make this all happen, we developed a sensor with a special companion processor that handles pixel scaling before sending the required number to the main image processor.

    Like the Nokia N8 before it, and a few other Nokia smartphones, the Nokia 808 PureView records true stereo audio. Most smartphones record only mono, while some infer stereo by using dual mono recording.
    In combination with the world’s first implementation of Nokia Rich Recording technology, Nokia 808 PureView records best in class stereo audio with every detail. Whilst most high end smartphones can only record without distortion to around 110db, the Nokia 808 can comfortably continue to around
    140-145 db, which is 4 times louder than conventional mics can record. Apart from that Nokia Rich Recording can also record very low frequencies also without any distortion. The combination of all of these elements means the Nokia 808 records audio with almost CD like quality. It has to be heard to be
    believed. In terms of both visual and audible performance, the Nokia 808 simply has no equal.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    In brief, the major two things Nokia three main things:
    Hardware-level, manufacturing such a high-quality 41 MP sensor with dual-modus aspect ratio!! And the ability to record such a high-quality Stereo sound!
    Software-level, implementing this oversampling algorithm with such a minimal hardware requirements, and instantly, to achieve and enable the Nokia PureView technology!

    Amazing stuff! The adrenaline has hit high levels since I watched the keynote this morning!
    Due to lack of time in such big events, the keynote was pretty quick and brief and left us with many more questions than answers at first! Specially about the PureView technology.

    Anyway, Nokia did deliver some significant industry news today! They've beaten all expectations! And can only hope they will keep on doing so!
    While others are busy making their useless quad-cores to sell more devices Nokia are delivering some innovative and useful stuff!
    And btw, this is what was meant that the 1Ghz mark was the tipping point and beyond that it's just evolutionary process! 41 MP and 1080p at 30 FPS and continuous autofocus with just a 1.3 GHz single core old generation A11 Cortex! And a little companion processor for the sensor but it does only very limited and specific task.

    Back to the PureView, a note here is that using the full 38MP or 34MP photos makes no sense! One could snap with at these resolutions, but only to crop and frame later. Nokia call it "choosing the image inside the image"..
    However, when zooming to 3x, or cropping in this case, there will be no oversampling more, and the real effective pixels of the 41MP sensor would be the actual ones used, but only the 5MP of the effective 38 or 34 in the middle! And this little area on the sensor has the least amount of distortion and vignetting and most detail. And this will be the key factor to compensate for the high pixel density as oversampling can't be used anymore at this zoom level.

    Everything just adds together to one perfect mix! Will be looking forward for Nokia to port this technology to Lumias. If not happening by Nokia Connect in June, I'll consider getting one of these 808 just to pay tribute for such a major milestone in the photography world!
    And well enjoy using this amazing camera of course.
    BTW, the 1/1.2" sensor is the biggest to be used in a compact camera in the world! Only DSLRs have bigger sensors! And even bridge cameras priced around the 500€ to 600€ don't offer such sensor size!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSuper View Post
    Does anyone know why it has a camera hump? It doesn't make the phone look attractive at all.
    As 93tid hinted, it's to fit the optics and huge sensor but also the Xenon! The Xenon module is what requires most of the space here. Specially that it's now 2x as powerfull as the N8's! So it should mean it's a bit bigger as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHotepUK View Post
    I suspect it's Nokia testing the market too - it will answer the question "how well will a device built around a specific feature sell, irrespective of the operating system". This will give them a lot information, and a possible "Plan B" should Windows Phone fail to make much market impact.

    Sometimes though, I can't help thinking Nokia would be better off just making cameras
    Windows Phone can not fail! The blocks of the puzzle are almost all in place now and everything should be clear!
    There were other interesting news revealed today by Nokia. But for other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93tid View Post
    No one seems to have noticed, so I might as well mention it now - the 808 has both Xenon AND LED flash, for stills and video respectively ?
    I was just about to mention this.
    They also reintroduced Touch to Focus.. Continuous focus with 1080p as well..
    Other new stuff as well as Hyperfocal focusing, new instant slide zooming with automatic 5MP output, and of course the new lossless zooming in general! Up to 3x on 5MP photos! This is crazy stuff!

    One letdown is that the native camera app don't support the front camera anymore!

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  21. #18
    Nokia Genius NAVVARR's Avatar
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    Because it is, they have stopped development as Belle is the last major update to come out






    You obviously haven't heard of Symbina Carla and Symbian Donna.
    Both unlikely to end up on an N8 near you- however they will probably eventually end up on this phone.

    Google them- there is pleny of info on websites.
    Symbian isn't dead, it's still going to be supported for a few years yet 2015 -16 at least.

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    Hello,
    I would like to ask you a question, but I need to be more specific so I'll tell you some conditions to the answer that I want.

    First, I'm not an App-maniac, in other words, I don't go to the Store download any apps that I don't really need (and that happens like twice a year). The only apps that maybe I would buy are classic games, but that's all.
    Second, I like to do things fast. For example, I go to the contacts' app, I do what I have to do and then switch for another application, in a very quick time.
    And finally, I can't live without multimedia, so I need to put a lot of pictures, videos and songs in my phone, and I REALLY like to take pictures and to film.

    So the things I really need in a phone are: Multimedia, to take pictures and to film, telephone, send SMS and MMS and to go to websites, read my e-mails... things like this.



    So, the question is: Should I buy this phone?
    I appreciate the design, but I'm scared because of the processor. I actually have an iPhone and want to switch to Nokia, am I doing right?

    Thanks for your answers.

  23. #20
    Nokia Genius Doc Tran's Avatar
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    I'm gonna get one.
    6x zoom in 720p mode. That's so awesome. This is gonna be real great when I go to concerts, especially with the added audio quality.
    The new camera UI from Belle FP1 looks amazing. It looks like there are three custom settings you can have ready.
    Love that the case comes with a lens cover.

    Instead of using a panorama app, you could just crop the 38MP image!
    I wonder what the Camera Pro app will be like with this much power to mess with.

    I really hope Nokia makes this available in time for Comic Con.

  24. #21
    Nokia Guru NZtechfreak's Avatar
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    Like some others I love the camera here, but won't touch Symbian. Be interested to see this tech in a WP for sure though.
    N95 owner since April '07
    Phone 'rig': Samsung Galaxy Note with Sandisk 64GB MicroSDXC, HTC One X, Black N82 V20 firmware HACKED, Samsung HS3000 receiver, Nokia DT-22 tripod, Gorillapod, iGo Ultraslim Stowaway Bluetooth keyboard, Phonejoy, Datel Retro Wireless, Zeemote, Dell Bluetooth Mouse, MHL adapter, USB OTG cable, Zephyr HxM BT heart rate monitor!
    Audio rig:
    USB DACs - ASUS Xonar Essence One desktop DAC, FiiO E17 portable, FiiO E7, HeadAmp PICO USB DAC/Amp
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    How much do you think this flagship will sell for? For the feature break down, I'd say...

    $350 - Camera
    $90 - GPS
    $300 - Phone, media player, OS

    I'm guessing $740 , and when this flagship is old news it'll probably deflate to about $400. Or am I being to generous with my guesses?

  26. #23
    Moderator 93tid's Avatar
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    Announced at 450 EUR depending on local taxes and charges.
    "Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic."

    If you appreciate help from a member,then show it by clicking on the 'Thanks' button! - Sp00k

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  27. #24
    Moz
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    It's certainly caught the imagination of the UK public. For a time this morning, the news article was in the Top 5 most read stories on the BBC website!

  29. #26
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    I've read ca. €450 a few places. But on soem sites, I've seen €630. This is a bit high, and a large difference. Can anyone make sense of this?

    My Nokia History....

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    I'll bet these are pre-order sites trying to cash in on the initial euphoria. On the other hand it could be 450 EUR + local VAT, but still 630 is too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93tid View Post
    I'll bet these are pre-order sites trying to cash in on the initial euphoria. On the other hand it could be 450 EUR + local VAT, but still 630 is too much.
    ive read on all about symbian it is 450 euros plus local taxes ie uk will be 20% taking it to approx 530 euros at time of release

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    A nice interview from Myriam with Damian Dinning:
    The Engadget Interview: Nokia Lead for Imaging Experience Damian Dinning -- Engadget

    Damian showed the real sensors used in the 808, Lumia 800, and another older smaller 5MP sensor.
    Other than that nothing new..

    And here's DPreview's take on the 808:
    41MP Nokia 808 smartphone hints at pixel-binning future for small sensor cameras: Digital Photography Review

    Well put and detailed article. As always from dpreview.

    And here's an image showing the difference in size of sensors:


    Note that 1/3.2" is the size used in the likes of GSII, iPhone 4S, and probably Lumias as well (not sure as it could be a bit bigger at 1/2.5")..
    The Four Thirds sensor is the smallest variant used in DSLRs.. It's half the size of the Full Frame sensor used in high-end pro DSLRs, and two thirds the size of the APS-C sensor used in high-end consumer DSLRs and some semi-pro DSLRS as well such as the D7000..

    Quote Originally Posted by 93tid View Post
    I'll bet these are pre-order sites trying to cash in on the initial euphoria. On the other hand it could be 450 EUR + local VAT, but still 630 is too much.
    Back in Nokia World 2011, when announcing the Lumia 800, Elop gave a 420€ retail price with variations depending on local taxes and charges.
    The Lumia then went 500€ on pre-order, and then 480€ on release date. And now, as with all tech past the silvester's eve, it dropped around 100€ residing around 370€..

    Expect similar thing with the 808.. It's heading for a May release btw.. Expect it to drop price below 400€ by Q4.

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    It begs the question - why hasn't this sensor been used in a camera with an optical zoom as well? That way you'd get full zoom with the over-sampling noise reduction built in. That would be amazing for a compact camera. Like I said, sometimes I think Nokia are in the wrong business

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    The sensor did not exist, Nokia co-developed it from scratch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHotepUK View Post
    It begs the question - why hasn't this sensor been used in a camera with an optical zoom as well? That way you'd get full zoom with the over-sampling noise reduction built in. That would be amazing for a compact camera. Like I said, sometimes I think Nokia are in the wrong business
    Because the image sensor dictates the lens size!
    For such a sensor size, you'd need a lens 3x the size of the phone itself to achieve optical zooming!!

    Image sensor format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    What I meant is why not make a proper camera with this sensor, it seems almost wasted on a camera phone. 93tid answered the question - it's a Nokia proprietary sensor.

    If they could manufacture one at APS-C size, that could have possibly 100 miliion+ photosites and with a 7 to 1 noise reduction ratio, that would epic paired with good quality optics in a high quality compact or CSC body. You might get decent quality up at ISO12800!

    Before long, these things will be seeing in the dark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHotepUK View Post
    What I meant is why not make a proper camera with this sensor, it seems almost wasted on a camera phone. 93tid answered the question - it's a Nokia proprietary sensor.

    If they could manufacture one at APS-C size, that could have possibly 100 miliion+ photosites and with a 7 to 1 noise reduction ratio, that would epic paired with good quality optics in a high quality compact or CSC body. You might get decent quality up at ISO12800!

    Before long, these things will be seeing in the dark.
    Here's the deal:

    Putting the zooming aside, and talking pure quality, are Nokia better off with a 5MP at 1/1.2", or with a 41MP at 1/1.2" and oversample down to 5 MP?!
    Let's discuss:

    We know that going for a high pixel density, quality will degrade significantly! And the main question is how much quality does oversampling help in bringing back? Some of it? Most of it? Or even better, exceed the limits to enhance it?!!

    Let's go further into smaller details:
    The sensor now sits at a 1.4 micron for a pixel size. Which is still very good. Equals the pixel size of that of the iP4s and GSII (both are at 8MP 1/3.2" sensor)..
    So shooting for instance 3x zoom at 5MP should still lead to same RAW quality of the iPhone 4S and GSII given the optics are the same (they aren't)..

    However, shooting zoomed out at 5MP, with oversampling, the quality will be boosted as if the original effective pixels were bigger than 1.4 micron in size.
    Had the sensor been made just 5MP, its pixels would be at 4.3 microns in size. This is 3x the size of the current pixels, and up at the high-end consumer DSLR range!

    Oversampling combines seven pixels into one. So seven 1.4 micron pixels are overlapping each other now to form a 4.3 micron pixel!

    So the big question here, does oversampling seven 1.4 micron pixels into one 4.3 micron pixel leads to better, equal, or lower quality than having less but bigger pixels each at 4.3 micron in size in the first place?!

    And the answer is: Lower!

    Otherwise Nokia would have revolutionized the whole imaging industry! From cameraphones up to DSLRs!! But this didn't happen.
    Oversampling is neat trick, but not a revolutionary one in terms of enabling higher levels of image quality!

    Now, other question pops up: By how much does oversampling higher the quality? Or how much lost quality is oversampling able to compensate?
    That we are all waiting for real life photos to know about.
    But for sure it beats the N8 for instance. And this already sits at 1.75 microns!

    It should beat the current high-end compact cameras in image quality. In exception for the Canon G1 X maybe!
    For comparison, the S100, current best selling high-end compact, sits at 1.8 microns.

    However, the big achievement Nokia made is still by bringing lossless zoom to such a compact size camera without resorting to the heavy and large zoom lenses!!

    But still even compared to midrange compacts, true the 808 would deliver higher image quality, but with a stand-alone camera and optical zoom, higher quality zooms are possible, and also a whole set of features giving more manual control over settings to enable certain creative photographic scenes and enhance the overall quality!

    Although with such crop zooming one has the possibility to zoom later instead!! Which is a big feature as well!

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    Any cases, this phone may be my next upgrade b/c my #1 priority is still the camera....of course, it has to pass the final feel/see test.

    Still bother me that it has 512MB of RAM.
    Last edited by huy30; 02-29-2012 at 08:02 AM.

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    i wander if the 808 will beat top point and shoot cameras like :

    Panasonic Lumix TZ8 Digital Camera - Black 2.7 inch: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics -- tz8

    Canon IXUS 230 HS Digital Camera - Black 3.0 inch LCD: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics -- ixus 230 hs

    both these camera outperformed the n8 , i wander if the 808 fairs any better , good thing about the cameras mentioned is they are high quality , produce good shots , have optical zoom and easily fit in a shirt pocket they are so small and for less then £180 arent badly priced

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    A nice interview with Dinning going through the camera UI at the end..



    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And here are the full highlights of the Nokia 808 with PureView technology: (make sure you read them all)

    - The PureView technology has been developed for the past five years and in parallel with other technologies implemented in recent Nokia camraphones.
    - Lossless Zoom: 3x for Stills, 4x for 1080p video, 6x for 720p video, 12x for nHD video.
    - Dual modus sensor supporting both aspect ratios: 16:9 at 34 effective MP, and 4:3 at 38 effective MP.
    - 26-76 mm zoom range, maintaining same aperture over all the range! This means 3.5 stops advantages enabling up to 6x faster shutter speeds!
    - Contrast to optical zooming, distortion is kept at minimal level!
    - Zooming is all silent as there are no optical element moving back and forth. (Important in video capturing)
    - The lens is produced at 10x more precision than SLR lenses to cope with the 41 MP sensor!
    - The whole camera module is at 50% to 70% less in size compared to similar range zooms!
    - Maintain same 15 cm minimal focus distance for the whole zoom range!
    - The huge sensor enables a longer focal length of 8.02 mm (equivalent to 26mm and 28mm depending on the aspect ratio), which coupled with the wide F2.4 aperture enables Bokeh effects current compact cameras can't achieve!!!
    In comparison, the high-end Canon G12, has a 6.1-30.5 mm equivalent to 28-140 mm, and at F2.8-4.5!!
    - The 41 MP 1/1.2" sensor has a native pixel size of 1.4 microns.
    - Offering Slide Zoom: Swipe up or down on the viewfinder to automatically adjust the zoom steps and the output resolution of the desired photo!
    - Processing at 1000 MP/sec and 16x oversampling than conventional cameras and smartphones!! There is a built-in GPU in the camera module to help in the process!
    - Nokia Rich Record: Capture sound at 140-145 db, more than even some professional cameras can achieve, and at minimal distortion levels enabling CD-like quality!!
    - Oversampling eliminates Bayern pattern problems which could lead to certain artifacts! Which in turn leads to pure high-quality detailed 5MP photos!

    This last statement could be the key that oversampling does indeed beat the bigger photosites approach to better quality!!
    This will remain to be tested. Of course some experts will have their say on the issue soon enough. But if turns out to be true, then we can safely claim that Nokia have re-invented digital photography!!

    Meanwhile, due to the bigger sensor alone, at 1x zoom and 7-to1 oversampling ratio, the Nokia 808 PureView should be able to outperform any compact digital camera in the market today in terms of IQ! In exception for the freshly announced Canon G1 X which in turn takes another different approach to conventional compact digital photography!


    Quote Originally Posted by buxz777 View Post
    i wander if the 808 will beat top point and shoot cameras like :

    Panasonic Lumix TZ8 Digital Camera - Black 2.7 inch: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics -- tz8

    Canon IXUS 230 HS Digital Camera - Black 3.0 inch LCD: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics -- ixus 230 hs

    both these camera outperformed the n8 , i wander if the 808 fairs any better , good thing about the cameras mentioned is they are high quality , produce good shots , have optical zoom and easily fit in a shirt pocket they are so small and for less then £180 arent badly priced
    Is it based in your own experience that these two outperform the N8 or quoted from somewhere else?

    I can tell you that both cameras sit at the midrange of the spectrum.
    Their key feature is offering relatively high optical zooming at a very compact form factor.

    Advantages to N8:
    - More powerful Xenon flash
    - Optical zooming up to 12x and 8x respectively
    - Variable aperture, albeit sits a minimum of 3.3 and 3.0 respectively for the two cameras, and slower Shutter Speeds
    - Manual mode giving full control over settings, including aperture, SS, ISO, and custom WB
    - Optical Image Stabilization
    - An option for less JPEG compression (enabled in the N8 through a hack)
    - Focus distance down to 3 cm and 1cm respectively
    (The last three being insignificant compared to the N8)

    However, regarding pure image quality regarding only the common ground, the N8 should beat these two!
    By common ground I mean excluding the grounds where the N8 can't go due to lack to some of the first four key features listed above.
    Xenon included of course, however, the N8 should also achieve better flash-free night photography!!

    This is based on IQ comparisons of the N8 with higher-quality cameras to these two above! One of which is the best seller high-end S95!!!

    Now how would the Nokia 808 compare to these compacts?!
    Expect it to blow them away in terms of IQ. However, there will be limitations in certain areas of course.
    Like can't offer more than 3x zoom. No full manual mode. As to the Xenon performance, we should wait and see, but it should do better than even high-end compacts in this area!
    And notice the highlights I listed above where the Nokia 808 will have some significant advantages over the highest-end P&S at some areas!!

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    trust me mate the n8 does not take better pictures then these 2 cameras and the flash and night-time images were very weak compared to them in real world useage , i wish it wasnt or i might not have bought a point and shoot camera to replace my n8

    in perfect conditions the n8 could take pictures that could compare to them but anything challenging like fast moving objects , night time landscape shots etc etc the n8 lost by quite a bit this is my opinion and all the people that viewed the shots opinion

    dont forget we cant use specs to judge real world useage and proper results

    there is no doubting they fit into the mid range point and shoot camera range (although the tz8 was high end when released over 1 year ago) but they are very good cameras that produce great easy to take shots and these are the sort of cameras id want the 808 to beat but iam not so sure it will or it will offer a nice enough photo experience when compared to cameras like these ie the versatillity that a camera like this offers - optical zoom , 1cm focus , powerfull xenon , etc etc

    the 808 does look awesome in terms of camera tech however i dont know if it would make me ditch my point and shoot yet - but i cant wait to try one and see the quality myself :-)
    Last edited by buxz777; 02-29-2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    I forgot one important highlight:

    There are three camera modes:
    - Fully Automatic mode. Point and shoot. For both stills and videos.
    - Scenes mode. Same various scenes presets found on different smartphones and compact cameras.
    - Creative mode:
    • Switch between PureView (Oversampling) and Full Resolution
    • Choose which resolutions to go for depending on the above two modes. 3MP, 5MP, 8MP for PureView. 34MP and 38MP for Full Resolution
    • In video mode: Three resolutions at 1080p, 720p, nHd. Four frame rates at 30FPS, 25FPS, 24FPS, 15FPS.
    • Set JPEG compression to Fine or Standard
    • Different color tones, bracketing and timer setting, as well as sharpness, saturation, and contrast sliders
    • Five different WB presets
    • Flash settings
    • Exposure compensation slider with live historgram!!! THIS IS HUGE!!! Even my D7000 doesn't offe this feature!
    • ISO manual setting ranging from 50 up to 1600 with all stops available to set!!
    • An option to turn the ND filer on and off enabling extra slow Shutter Speed!!!
    • Possibility to save three different sets of these features



    Quote Originally Posted by buxz777 View Post
    trust me mate the n8 does not take better pictures then these 2 cameras and the flash and night-time images were very weak compared to them in real world useage , i wish it wasnt or i might not have bought a point and shoot camera to replace my n8
    I didn't phrase my statement above quite well. My bad.
    I actualy meant that in the Xenon department, the N8 is inferior to these two. It can't produce better indoors Xenon images than any midrange camera for that matter.

    Reason for that is the Xenon mudule itself. It's mini compared to proper standard Xenons used nowadays.

    Maybe it can do well against low-ends in this area, and probably deliver slightly better quality despite the fact that even these low-ends offer bigger Xenon modules. But the N8 would beat them with the help of other factors.

    Now as to night photography, without flash, the N8 can go as slow as 1/5 sec. Which is the least SS that could still be handled without a tripod.
    Now comparing the N8 in this common ground with the two cameras above, I have no doubt it will deliver better results.

    Only problem is the N8 is not easy at all to manage in these situation. First thing one should avoid the night scene mode as it ruins the quality instead of optimizing it!
    Also certain exposure compensation should be done depending on the lighting. But as a result, it should delive higher quality in this area!

    in perfect conditions the n8 could take pictures that could compare to them but anything challenging like fast moving objects , night time landscape shots etc etc the n8 lost by quite a bit this is my opinion and all the people that viewed the shots opinion
    Also here for fast moving objects the N8 isn't intuitive to use. On complete Auto midrangers could get better results.
    But overall, the N8 should have an advantage as for such scenes it has the options to cope with! Such scenes aren't out of N8's bounds.

    dont forget we cant use specs to judge real world useage and proper results
    Of course we can't!
    The processing in action is as massively significant as the hardware in use!
    Also the sensor and optics quality count for more than numbers and sizes! However, in this area the N8 is pretty much high quality as well!

    But I'm basing my claims on actual comparison photos anyway! Not only specs. I can upload photos but I simply don't want to go that far.
    We're talking Nokia 808 now..

    there is no doubting they fit into the mid range point and shoot camera range (although the tz8 was high end when released over 1 year ago)
    The TZ8 was a midrange at launch!
    Panasonic's flaghsip compact cameras are always the LX family.
    The LX-5 was Panny's flagship Q3 to Q4 2010.. And it's in a totally different league to the TZ8!

    The N8 doesn't stand a chance against this level of high-end compact cameras. Nikon P7000 and Canon G12 were the other two biggies at that time as well.
    However, in some areas, it came really close!!

    but they are very good cameras that produce great easy to take shots and these are the sort of cameras id want the 808 to beat but iam not so sure it will or it will offer a nice enough photo experience when compared to cameras like these ie the versatillity that a camera like this offers - optical zoom , 1cm focus , powerfull xenon , etc etc
    We shall see about that.. I'm personally expecting the 808 to blow them out of the water!
    But there remains certain features and some grounds that the 808 will not be able to reach.
    Full manual mode and RAW support are two biggies for instance..

    the 808 does look awesome in terms of camera tech however i dont know if it would make me ditch my point and shoot yet - but i cant wait to try one and see the quality myself :-)
    What's really interesting here is the technology itself: PureView!!
    The 808 is just the start. And it's just a bidge device to introduce the technology into the market.

    However, what this technology is capable of achieving beyond the 808, and what's coming next are the big two questions!!
    This is just the beginning.
    But even for a start, we are all waiting to see how it will compare to current compact cameras.

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    for me the tz8 at £300 at launch was a bit more then mid range , ok not quite flagship material but if it was to be classed as mid range it would defently be at the higher end of mid range

    it was priced at about £100 of slr prices here in the uk so defo at the higher end of the scale and quite a bargain at the prices its retailing for at the minute

    if the 808 can compete/beat this tz8 then hats of to nokia , i still doubt it will be as userable due to a camera like the tz8 feature list , however it will be awesome to have a camera like that in your pocket at all times etc

    iam currently using the ixus 230 and its an awesome little camera , the size of it is very handy and it doesnt feel out of place in a shirt pocket however it still captures a superb picture and the macro mode is awesome

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    I can't imagine myself ever buying a point and shoot. I was planning on getting a 4/3 camera later this year, but the 808 changed that. Maybe in 2013 when the technology matures a little more.

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    Here are some sample images of the 808:
    Nokia 808 PureView Samples - a set on Flickr

    Three shots at full 38MP resolutions with respective 100% crops..
    And two shots using PureView at 5MP.. With a 100% crop of one of them.

    Here are 100% crops of the first PureView image linked above, originally at 5MP:









    Zero Noise levels! Perfect detail!!
    This is truly a breakthrough!



    He's clearly pissed off at how many ignorant comments are pouring in from the media and some consumers despite all what has been given as explanations and clarifications so far from Nokia.
    Some are either really thick in the mind and still can't comprehend what is this 41MP sensor is about, or they are bashing just for the sake bashing and diverting the public from such a breakthrough Nokia achieved!

    And here's nice interview from GSMaren with Damian.. Full details and some new info there:
    Nokia 808 PureView in focus: An interview with Damian Dinning - GSMArena.com

    Most significantly Damian explained that Nokia's oversampling algorithms are a different concept compared to pixel binning!
    Specifically how they handled the color pixels! And what aspects they prioritized for the final images.

    He also explained that the oversampling processing is all done at RAW level along with the usual processing taking place.. So taking full resolution images at 38MP or 34MP and try to use Photoshop's algorithms to downsample them won't work the same way and can't lead to same high-quality results! Especially regarding noise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Tran View Post
    "Sounds like utter nonesense"

    "but we've not seen it, so we don't actually know"

    Brilliant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Tran View Post
    actualy i find them quite funny as one camera i did try - olympus vr300 i think or maybe it was the vr 320 - was clearly beaten by the nokia n8 in most conditions , the vr 300/320 rrp at time i compared was £130 as it was brand new to the market in the low/mid range bracket compact high zoom camera range

    the images it took were horrible and literally had me running for my nokia n8 at the time , even high range optical zoom didnt save it and the n8 quality was much better and images much more rewarding to look at

    olympus in my opinion havent been as good as they used to be of late and instead of bashing nokia they should get back in their own labs and get back to the drawing board themselves :-)
    Last edited by buxz777; 03-01-2012 at 03:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Tran View Post
    I can't imagine myself ever buying a point and shoot. I was planning on getting a 4/3 camera later this year, but the 808 changed that. Maybe in 2013 when the technology matures a little more.
    some of them arent to bad mate and can produce amazing shots



    here is a little review on the ixus iam using at the minute Canon Ixus 230 HS review | Expert Reviews

    dont get me wrong they arent the best cameras but for the size and what you can get out of it quality wise its great

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    I was going to jump ship until I heard that the 808 was going to run Belle. My contract is up on 02.05 so all good!

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    Nokia 808 PureView won the Best New Mobile Handset, Device or Tablet award 2012 at MWC a few days ago. Not bad, not bad at all! So out of everything launched at MWC, this is the product that clearly made the most impact.

    Nokia 808 PureView wins Best New Device at MWC - GSMArena.com news

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    oh it defo got the main interest , its top of gsm arenas interest list as well , i think that along with nokias great work , the lack of anything ''different'' or majorly ''impressive'' was announced to take any light away from nokias great achivement in the optics department

    i think nokia kept it quite well hidden too , there was a few rumours about 41mp nokia but they were laughed off by most myself included so this was a genuine suprise and certainly had that wow factor and there explanation of the 41mp lens was backed up by some great looking minimal noise photos

    nokia did ok at mwc for sure and gained a lot of positive press which is good for the brand but apart from the samsung beam the others at mwc were a bit ''samey'' unlike the 808

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